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  1. #5001
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brock Landers View Post
    Is GME a Ponzi scheme? When did it become a Ponzi scheme. AMC? At what $ value did AMC become a Ponzi. Are Treasury bonds a giant Ponzi scheme. If gme and amc are Ponzi’s, what’s different about wal mart or Amazon stock.
    PG is just in denial and uses the Ponzi term as a coping mechanism. Let's examine some common Ponzi characteristics via Investopedia and how they do or do not apply to BTC.


    1) A guaranteed promise of high returns with little risk

    It is well known that BTC is a risky investment over the short-term. Any potential investors can find this out with less than an hour of research.

    [X] Not a Ponzi [ ] Ponzi

    2) A consistent flow of returns regardless of market conditions

    BTC has traditionally moved in 4 year cycles since its inception. This is largely a function of its issuance which halves every 4 years. Between market tops within this pattern there have been bear markets with large price drawdowns. This seems at odds with consistent returns regardless of market conditions.

    [X] Not a Ponzi [ ] Ponzi

    3) Investments that have not been registered with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)

    Bitcoin is mostly decentralized so there is nobody to register it with the SEC. With that being said, the SEC has been largely supportive of BTC trading.

    [X] Not a Ponzi [ ] Ponzi

    4) Investment strategies that are secret or described as too complex to explain

    BTC is open source. Literally anyone can examine the complete codebase at any time and even submit improvement proposals. Some of these proposals (Taproot, Schnorr Signatures) are in the process of being implemented after miner signaling over the past few months.

    [X] Not a Ponzi [ ] Ponzi

    5) Clients not allowed to view official paperwork for their investment

    BTC is an open decentralized ledger. Anyone can view every single on chain transaction via free and widely available blockchain explorers

    [X] Not a Ponzi [ ] Ponzi

    6) Clients facing difficulties removing their money

    People can sell their BTC for another currency of their choice 24/7 365 from a multitude of centralized or decentralized exchanges.

    [X] Not a Ponzi [ ] Ponzi

    So there you have it folks. By a score of 6 to nothing, BTC is clearly not a Ponzi.



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  2. #5002
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    Oh, great, Texas. Now there's a reliable power source.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/15/chin...r-exodus-.html

    The world is perfect. Appreciate the details.

  3. #5003
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    I know there are only about 4 of us that don't have either PG or stalefish (or both) on ignore, but WTH. If you're going to argue about Ponzi schemes get your definition straight and stick to it.

    Ponzi had a business model. What made it an unsustainable fraud was overselling it by using new investors' money to pay off old investors in order to attract more new investors. Is BTC (or tether, all of crypto, or any "new" currency) doing that? None of those other characteristics are defining.

  4. #5004
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    I know there are only about 4 of us that don't have either PG or stalefish (or both) on ignore, but WTH. If you're going to argue about Ponzi schemes get your definition straight and stick to it.

    Ponzi had a business model. What made it an unsustainable fraud was overselling it by using new investors' money to pay off old investors in order to attract more new investors. Is BTC (or tether, all of crypto, or any "new" currency) doing that? None of those other characteristics are defining.
    Who is buying your Bitcoin when you are selling? New money. There isn't a float.

    Ponzi actually wasn't doing the arbitrage he promised. He was literally selling promises. He had no way to accomplish the arbitrage because the overhead was too big and the actual logistics of even moving around the coupons from Europe to the US would require "Titanic-sized ships"

    In fact, like Tether, the numbers didn't add up. There needed to be 160,000,000 postal reply coupons in circulation to back his investors but there were actually only 27,000 in circulation. Amazing similarities to Tether for sure.

    edit: too long. removed a few chapters incl. unnecessary Satoshi parallelisms.
    Last edited by puregravity; 06-20-2021 at 05:51 PM.
    OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman  Big Billie Eilish fan.
    But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
    we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er

  5. #5005
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    It's not a Ponzi, dude.

    The world is perfect. Appreciate the details.

  6. #5006
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    I know there are only about 4 of us that don't have either PG or stalefish (or both) on ignore, but WTH. If you're going to argue about Ponzi schemes get your definition straight and stick to it.

    Ponzi had a business model. What made it an unsustainable fraud was overselling it by using new investors' money to pay off old investors in order to attract more new investors. Is BTC (or tether, all of crypto, or any "new" currency) doing that? None of those other characteristics are defining.
    Go back to October posts when I called for 50k BTC. Meanwhile, PG's price target was zero. We are not the same.

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  7. #5007
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    Quote Originally Posted by puregravity View Post
    Who is buying your Bitcoin when you are selling? New money. There isn't a float. New investment is always providing the real money for people that cash out. Always and always. You only get to sell when someone buys. If all the order books dried up today, no one would be able to sell. It would be worthless. Nada. Nilch. Zippo. It is utterly dependent on new money - at all times.

    Ponzi actually wasn't doing the arbitrage he promised. He was literally selling promises. His business model was a fraud. Ponzi didn't have a business model because it was a logistical impossibility. The model was a fraud. Maybe this helps:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charle...i's_scheme


    "Though Ponzi was still paying back investors, mostly from money from subsequent investors, he had not yet figured out a way to actually change the IRCs to cash. He also subsequently realized that changing the coupons to money was a logistical impossibility. For example: for the initial 18 investors of January 1920, for their $1800 investment, it would have taken 53,000 postal coupons to actually realize the arbitrage profits. For the subsequent 15,000 investors that Ponzi had, he would have had to fill Titanic-sized ships with postal coupons just to ship them to the U.S. from Europe. However, Ponzi found that all the interest payments returned to him, as investors kept re-investing."

    "Barron then noted that to cover the investments made with the Securities Exchange Company, 160 million postal reply coupons would have to be in circulation. However, only about 27,000 actually were in circulation. ... The gross profit margin in percent on buying and selling each IRC was colossal, but the overhead required to handle the purchase and redemption of these items, which were of extremely low cost and were sold individually, would have exceeded the gross profit."


    My gawd. There weren't even enough postal coupons to back the investment (not even in the whole world!). Wait. Sounds like Tether. Amazing similarities for sure. IN other news Ponzi and Satoshi have something in common: they didn't think it through. Proof of Work defined in Satoshi's white paper is a great idea that ends with an exponentially increasing consumption and a certain eventual failure (and only protects against a very limited threat model consisting of only other Bitcoin miners). Doomed from the start. Both of them were smart and yet so very stupid all at the same time. Satoshi had to have known that this was the end of it all.

    My previous post with the 5 features of a Ponzi is fully applicable to Bitcoin. 100%. You need all 5 features. If any of the 5 is missing, then it is not a Ponzi.
    What do you think an investment is, genius? Why do people buy gold? Are they hoarding it in case they need to fill some cavities or make a shiny necklace? No, they are buying it so they can one day sell it at a profit, like pretty much every other investment.

    Clown.

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  8. #5008
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    This is going to help reaching 50k.

    "The clampdown means that 90% of the country’s Bitcoin mining capacity will be shut down, at least for the short term, the paper said"

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-crypto-mining

    The floggings will continue until morale improves.

  9. #5009
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalefish3169 View Post
    Go back to October posts when I called for 50k BTC. Meanwhile, PG's price target was zero. We are not the same.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
    The comparison people are making has nothing at all to do with your price prediction.

  10. #5010
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    Name:  8STKCs0.png
Views: 237
Size:  22.7 KB
    OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman  Big Billie Eilish fan.
    But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
    we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er

  11. #5011
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    Then there is Dogecoin. The ultimate crypto nihilism incarnate. That's is what makes Doge so beautiful. Oh Doge, how many ways do I love thee!
    OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman  Big Billie Eilish fan.
    But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
    we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er

  12. #5012
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalefish3169 View Post
    Go back to October posts when I called for 50k BTC. Meanwhile, PG's price target was zero. We are not the same.
    I didn't say you were the same, I said you both created conditions that aren't actually needed for a Ponzi scheme. For example, if Madoff had traded five or six times it would still have been a Ponzi scheme. But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book). Your conditions were just irrelevant and made up for the purpose of rhetoric.

    I'm not trying to argue with you about this stuff, everybody gets an opinion and defending the bull case is fine by me. I'm just saying the discussion would be more interesting with better logic and less desperation. It's not at zero. Be happy. Buy yourself some skis. This much zeal makes it seem like maybe PG is right and you're really in deep and need the new money bad.

  13. #5013
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    For example, if Madoff had traded five or six times it would still have been a Ponzi scheme. But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book).
    Wife read that part in brackets and expelled her omelet all over my monitor You're probably right about the "had traded five or six times it would still have been a Ponzi scheme."

    And full disclosure, I'm open to being wrong about the whole Ponzi thing. It could be a little less than one or a lot more than one. I'm invoking the best country song ever by Collin Raye, "Well, I ain't got a witness, and I can't prove it, But that's my story and I'm stickin' to it."
    OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman  Big Billie Eilish fan.
    But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
    we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er

  14. #5014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meathelmet View Post
    This is going to help reaching 50k.

    "The clampdown means that 90% of the country’s Bitcoin mining capacity will be shut down, at least for the short term, the paper said"

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-crypto-mining
    Can somebody explain why the Chinese Gov. has a such a hard on for BTC mining? Are they short on power so all this use is creating problems? Raising energy prices? Or are they wary of losing some control of finance in China?
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

  15. #5015
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    Quote Originally Posted by jono View Post
    I didn't say you were the same, I said you both created conditions that aren't actually needed for a Ponzi scheme. For example, if Madoff had traded five or six times it would still have been a Ponzi scheme. But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book). Your conditions were just irrelevant and made up for the purpose of rhetoric.

    I'm not trying to argue with you about this stuff, everybody gets an opinion and defending the bull case is fine by me. I'm just saying the discussion would be more interesting with better logic and less desperation. It's not at zero. Be happy. Buy yourself some skis. This much zeal makes it seem like maybe PG is right and you're really in deep and need the new money bad.
    I was commenting wrt you saying that most people have me and PG on ignore. I try to give free alpha to Mags trying to understand a complex topic. Anyone that wanted to listen when I called for 50k about 8 months ago could've made a lot of money.

    PG posts garbage and lies. If people followed his advice and sold their BTC when it was in the triple digits, they lost out on life-changing money.

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  16. #5016
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    Can somebody explain why the Chinese Gov. has a such a hard on for BTC mining? Are they short on power so all this use is creating problems? Raising energy prices? Or are they wary of losing some control of finance in China?
    China is cracking down on BTC because they are releasing their central bank digital currency, which will of course be a human rights nightmare. They will be able to spy on their citizens to an even greater extent than they already do, which is overwhelmingly scary. Additionally, China will be able to censor people's transactions at will and confiscate their savings. I believe that some of the issued money will also be time sensitive and expire.

    It's a no-brainer that Biden has a once in a lifetime chance to swoop in and make the US a hotbed for crypto innovation and give us a giant competitive advantage going into the next few decades. But of course he won't because he's the stubborn old Senator from MBNA and wants nothing more than to protect the status quo. After all, behind closed doors he told Wall Street that, "Nothing would fundamentally change" under his administration. Unfortunately, many of the posters in this thread have a serious case of Stockholm Syndrome and want to keep paying a shitload of taxes to the military industrial complex and keep the corrupt elite calling the shots. But maybe you will all figure it one day. Hopefully, before it's not too late.

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  17. #5017
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalefish3169 View Post
    What do you think an investment is, genius? Why do people buy gold? Are they hoarding it in case they need to fill some cavities or make a shiny necklace? No, they are buying it so they can one day sell it at a profit, like pretty much every other investment.

    Clown.

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    Except you know, gold is like something you can actually hold on to.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using TGR Forums mobile app

  18. #5018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidog View Post
    Except you know, gold is like something you can actually hold on to.

    Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using TGR Forums mobile app
    Gold is hard to verify. Gold is difficult to divide. Gold is extremely difficult to transport. Gold is easily seized by corrupt entities. Gold mining is conducted by pouring cyanide, literal poison, into the water supply and leaves giant scars on the landscape.

    It's the 21st century. I hate to break it to you, but shit isn't going to get less digital. Millennials and Zoomers understand this. Sorry if you don't.

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  19. #5019
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    Some good points. So let's usher in the 2020s by throwing away archaic coercive environmentally rapey Proof-of-Work boomer coins like BTC and replace them with crypto 2.0 & 3.0.

    After all, if folks want an alternative to fiat made available on a level playing field then you have to, out of necessity, do away with the biggest legitimate reason the government has for regulating its competition into obscurity.
    Last edited by MultiVerse; 06-20-2021 at 09:53 PM.

  20. #5020
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    Quote Originally Posted by stalefish3169 View Post
    What do you think an investment is, genius? Why do people buy gold? Are they hoarding it in case they need to fill some cavities or make a shiny necklace? No, they are buying it so they can one day sell it at a profit, like pretty much every other investment.

    Clown.

    Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk
    Bitcoin is not an investment.

    The world is perfect. Appreciate the details.

  21. #5021
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunion 2020 View Post
    Can somebody explain why the Chinese Gov. has a such a hard on for BTC mining? Are they short on power so all this use is creating problems? Raising energy prices? Or are they wary of losing some control of finance in China?
    The last. The party is all about power. Re: Jack Ma.

    The world is perfect. Appreciate the details.

  22. #5022
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    Sorry Benny, should have put a /R after that question.

    I wanted to get Stale to hold forth, he did not fail to do so.
    I have been in this State for 30 years and I am willing to admit that I am part of the problem.

  23. #5023
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    Quote Originally Posted by MultiVerse View Post
    Some good points. So let's usher in the 2010s by throwing away archaic coercive environmentally rapey Proof-of-Work boomer coins like BTC and replace them with crypto 2.0 & 3.0.
    You fundamentally just don't get it. Using electricity isn't inherently bad. Electricity can come from renewables and there is lots of stranded energy that isn't conducive for much because it's away from population centers, but feasible for BTC mining. There is a mass exodus out of China happening right now and much of the energy used in new mining locales will be primarily renewable. I still firmly believe that BTC mining will drive green energy development, even though people have a hard time accepting this idea. Finally as far as tech is concerned, BTC is by far the most decentralized and secure network; those things themselves are hugely innovative. New advancements such as Taproot and Schnoor signatures are big improvements and will be love in a few months.

    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Bitcoin is not an investment.
    Then why do I have to pay capital gains taxes on it?

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  24. #5024
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    Quote Originally Posted by yeahman View Post
    Interesting story about using excess natural gas in the Bakken oil play to power crypto-mining computers. Otherwise the gas just gets flared for the most part.

    https://www.ktvq.com/news/montana-ne...kken-oil-field
    Why not use the generated electricity for foldingathome.org? Do these gas companies not realize they will need new mining equipment every 2 to 3 years or else risk mining at a loss? And then mining machines going into electronics waste. They could even get a government grant or tax deduction if the computing power was donated to a charitable science cause. Obviously any use of the gas for power is better than just flaring it, right?

    "Together, we have created the most powerful supercomputer on the planet, and are using it to help understand SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19 and develop new therapies. We need your help pushing toward a potent, patent-free drug. Use your PC to help fight COVID-19."

    IMO if a company can get staff and equipment to a location and setup 1000 miners running in a shipping container with internet connectivity and support for ongoing systems issues, opsec etc., then it really isn't a "stranded resource." The whole "stranded" part is an oxymoron anyways. If it was stranded you wouldn't be there sucking oil and gas out of the earth, you'd be still building the roads required to get equipment there.
    OH, MY GAWD! ―John Hillerman  Big Billie Eilish fan.
    But that's a quibble to what PG posted (at first, anyway, I haven't read his latest book) ―jono
    we are not arguing about ski boots or fashionable clothing or spageheti O's which mean nothing in the grand scheme ― XXX-er

  25. #5025
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    Economically stranded, though--totally not generating money yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by stalefish3169 View Post
    There is a mass exodus out of China happening right now and much of the energy used in new mining locales will be primarily renewable.
    So you're saying these BTC miners heading over from China are bringing their own power plants? Or are they moving to places where other people built some renewable infrastructure and they're going to increase the load on that?

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