Bitcoin....who's gotten into it?

[stalefish3169]

If credit card companies taking advantage of the poor is the issue then the ugly truth behind the BTC rewards cards discussed here a few pages ago is America’s poor foot much of the bill for credit card points, miles, cash back and crypto rewards.

https://www.tiktok.com/music/origina...39378740873990

You're conflating a lot of things there, boss. Like crypto, credit cards are not going away. However 34% APR is redic. Especially when it's allowed but BTC ads are not. Once again, you've missed the point. It's like you really are living in some alternate universe. Did you listen to the link I shared with the excellent interview of Will Reeves, the cofounder of the https://foldapp.com? If you do, you'll understand that his mission is not, "taking advantage of the poor."

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[MakersTeleMark]

Bitcoiners: Bitcoin is an unseizable asset

FBI: hold my beer

What part of this do you not understand? They had the key, they didn't do anything tech worthy. As I stated above, someone coughed it up to them. This is not rocket science.

Court documents released in the Colonial Pipeline case say the FBI got in by using the encryption key linked to the Bitcoin account to which the ransom money was delivered. However, officials have not disclosed how they got that key. One of the reasons criminals like to use Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies is the anonymity of the entire system, as well as the idea that funds in any given cryptocurrency wallet can be accessed only with a complex digital key.

"The private key is, from a technology perspective, the thing that made it possible to seize these funds,"

[MultiVerse]

What part of this do you not understand? They had the key, they didn't do anything tech worthy. As I stated above, someone coughed it up to them. This is not rocket science.

What part of "there's no evidence the feds cracked SHA-256 but that doesn't mean bitcoin is entirely secure" don't you understand?

You're conflating a lot of things there, boss. Like crypto, credit cards are not going away. However 34% APR is redic. Especially when it's allowed but BTC ads are not. Once again, you've missed the point. It's like you really are living in some alternate universe.

Alternate universe? Doesn't BTC require fees to transact? Doesn't the fact Bitcoin fees can average in excess of $60/transaction when the network is congested present a problem for its use by the poor? The average annual income for a low income worker in Somalia, for example, is equivalent to $112.

[MakersTeleMark]

What part of "there's no evidence the feds cracked SHA-256 but that doesn't mean bitcoin is entirely secure" don't you understand?


Alternate universe? BTC doesn't require fees to transact? Doesn't the fact Bitcoin fees can average in excess of $60/transaction when the network is congested present a problem for its use by the poor?

No network is absolutely secure. That is inherent in any system. People rob banks everyday, and the very reason ransomware is so successful is because firms don't take digital security seriously. They got what was coming to them, whereas the security of the bitcoin network and blockchain is very much a foremost concern of users and developers every minute of every day.

And BTC is not meant for use, by anyone, including the poor. It's use case has long since evolved from the white paper. Plenty of other chains are addressing transaction costs and reaching out to the unbanked.

[stalefish3169]

Alternate universe? BTC doesn't require fees to transact? Doesn't the fact Bitcoin fees can average in excess of $60/transaction when the network is congested present a problem for its use by the poor?

Cherry picking an outlier transaction fee doesn't do a lot for your argument. However, even in the worst case scenario, $60 is probably a lot less than Western Union is going to charge for a remittance to say....El Salvador. Speaking of which, Jack Mallers and his company Strike that specializes in the Lightning Network, which you just posted about, brings fees to almost zero. And Jack is assisting El Salvador with their implementation plan.

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[MakersTeleMark]

Remittances are done with stablecoins. That is one of their main features. Nobody gives their family across borders 0.00001 BTC. I convert fiat to USDC, send it to any address, they convert to fiat, if they choose. There are so many people who are US centric who don't understand that volume worldwide is huge in stablecoins for very mundane transactions, not for investment.

Look at something like https://www.0.exchange/

[stalefish3169]

No network is absolutely secure. That is inherent in any system. People rob banks everyday, and the very reason ransomware is so successful is because firms don't take digital security seriously. They got what was coming to them, whereas the security of the bitcoin network and blockchain is very much a foremost concern of users and developers every minute of every day.

And BTC is not meant for use, by anyone, including the poor. It's use case has long since evolved from the white paper. Plenty of other chains are addressing transaction costs and reaching out to the unbanked.

I think it's worth noting that the argument stating BTC must be useable for small transactions has been heavily pushed by the Roger Ver/big block crowd and is not explicitly stated in the white paper IIRC. Additionally Satoshi is on record saying that BTC was designed as defense against central bank money printing, which is why I am stacking Sats. I agree with you that BTC's primary use case now is SOV with occasional transactions, not everyday spending. Although as 2nd layer tech improves, more frequent spending may become more attractive.

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[shera]

Opposing opinions interlaced with facts can be abrasive. Just carry on mining with your rig, enjoy that heat in the summer while the yields drop.
Fascinating to see how on various forums the reality is kicking in: bang for buck is getting shittier by day, rigs/cards bought with loan start to melt along with the hashrate and one has to actually live with the consequences of sauna like apartment. Used cards are starting to flood into forums and buyers are not that interested as the memories are shot due to poor heatpads.

All this while the more rigorous enthusiasts start to do the calculations how much they have actually earned with mining. Geezers around here have made some 7000€/8 months with 300hash systems and after taxes/electricity/upkeep/costs the profits have been around 500€.... #drama

Yes you are abrasive. And if you think I haven't heard of all this garbage getting spewed already then maybe it is you that is not informed. And you really can't find it in you to assume that I am continuing to do my own research and I don't need what this thread is serving up, msm boomer level nonsense.

As for mining, I built my rigs in 2018, so they are paid for many times over. I also live at 10,000 feet so yes, I do enjoy that heat. #drama

[MultiVerse]

Cherry picking an outlier transaction fee doesn't do a lot for your argument. However, even in the worst case scenario, $60 is probably a lot less than Western Union is going to charge for a remittance to say....El Salvador. Speaking of which, Jack Mallers and his company Strike that specializes in the Lightning Network, which you just posted about, brings fees to almost zero. And Jack is assisting El Salvador with their implementation plan.

From the last time this came up: Average Bitcoin transaction fees vary and can spike during periods of congestion. What happens when a poor family needs to send money in an emergency? Are they supposed to wait for a slow Sunday or suck it up and pay $60 or whatever the case might be on the day they need to send it?


In any case, Strike acts as an intermediary for the Lightning Network not unlike the crypto exchanges. In that sense it can be thought of as a Fintech like Remitly and Wise, both of which not only cost less than Western Union they also cost less than using the Bitcoin network.

As I've argued many, many times crypto is helping drive a lot of innovation. Strike (crypto) Remitly and Wise (Fintech) are examples of the phenomenon I've described throughout this thread.

[MakersTeleMark]

I don't think there are any poor families hodling btc. And I have already addressed your point above.

Btc traders and investors don't give a shit about transaction costs really. The low tps actually is a security feature along with pow that people value.

[MultiVerse]

And I have already addressed your point above.

Re, "Remittances are done with stablecoins" and "traders and investors don't give a shit about transaction costs" etc. Yeah, that fits into the larger discussion about how Bitcoin is more centralized than the banking system because most transactions take place on a handful of exchanges.

[pureantigravity]

The lamest of all is bitcoiner mods deleting posts of others in support of an agenda.

Nope. The lamest of all is Stale whining about my old deleted posts when he still has 99% of them quoted in his old undeleted posts. There isn't a single thing I said in this thread that hasn't been quoted by Stale in the last 3 years. LOL. If Stale thought it was important to keep, then he quoted it. Just go back to 2017-2018 and read all of Stale's posts. He literally quoted everything I said - everything. LOL.

[stalefish3169]

Nope. The lamest of all is Stale whining about my old deleted posts when he still has 99% of them quoted in his old undeleted posts. There isn't a single thing I said in this thread that hasn't been quoted by Stale in the last 3 years. LOL.

No dude. Everyone absolutely should be able to see that you've been calling zero for BTC since it was in the hundreds of dollars and now you're trying to lead a circle jerk over it "crashing" to 30k. You don't get a do over on those calls bro. Some of us actually have skin in the game here. Curiously you never responded to my comment suggesting the most obvious conclusion is that you're a PAID TROLL. How's it feel carrying water for the man?

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[pureantigravity]

Bitcoin remains, then, a neutral network. In my opinion, this is a net positive, and something I hope endures.

You really want your wife to see al the lap dances you bought? Companies want competitors to see their payments? Really? This is probably BTC's understated Achilles heel. In the real world, we don't care for our neighbors knowing our finances. Even families and loved ones don't share finances.

[MakersTeleMark]

You really want your wife to see al the lap dances you bought? Companies want competitors to see their payments? Really? This is probably BTC's understated Achilles heel. In the real world, we don't care for our neighbors knowing our finances. Even families and loved ones don't share finances.

Says the guy who posted the public address for his dogshit wallet. STFU and GTFO.

[pureantigravity]

I use Stale as my sub-in defacto blockchain here. Since TGR refuses to put my posts on their revolutionary blockchain tech, I rely on Stale to keep a permanent record of what I post. He's slacked off a bit lately. In times of old he was batting 100%. He's still about as reliable as Amazon web services - which is a great compliment I think! Days since Stale forgot to quote a PG post: 0.

[pureantigravity]

Says the guy who posted the public address for his dogshit wallet. STFU and GTFO.

Where were you? I was walking by one of the locals on a rug with the 'much wow, please donate' sign and noticed that there wasn't anything in my Doge-coins-for humanity wallet. I was thinking people would be a little more generous here. It's always about "how I can get rich". Dogecoin is about making others rich. Dogecoin cares much! Everyone enjoys such care in the Doge-verse.



I call that, "The Good Sheppard: the unlimited cares of the Doge-verse."

edit: I forgot to sign my original NFT painting! Now signed. Only 1 ever produced. SCARCITY!

[MakersTeleMark]

Where were you? I was walking by one of the locals on a rug with the 'much wow, please donate' sign and noticed that there wasn't anything in my Doge-coins-for humanity wallet. I was thinking people would be a little more generous here. It's always about "how I can get rich". Dogecoin is about making others rich. Dogecoin cares much!

Attachment 376681

I think you should heed the second quotation in your sig.

[Meathelmet]

However, even in the worst case scenario, $60 is probably a lot less than Western Union is going to charge for a remittance to say....El Salvador

Remittance economy might not be the most constructive in the long run for countries, say El Salvador, where 20% of the economy is based upon that?
"It will correct the world wide economical unbalance" is the common trope...no it won't.

Blockchain might have its future in party-to-party smart contracts in third worlds, where legislative systems are not yet up to par to protect both parties, not in wealth transfer economy between geographical/economical areas.

[pureantigravity]

I think you should heed the second quotation in your sig.

True enough. FYI - I admit to following Jordan Belfort and he thinks Doge is going to $1.

[shera]

OMG Michael Saylor just put that Mark Twain quote up on twitter.

[CirqueScaler]

Lightning channels can be kept open but require at minimum two transactions per each wallet on the core blockchain. The limitation is with the bitcoin Blockchain. The four hundred thousand max daily L2 transactions should read four hundred thousand max daily additional single channel transactors (not transactions).

In other words, the limitation is in the number of L2 channels that you can transact with. As a practical matter a wallet or user needs more than a single channel, further limiting what the Lightning Network can accomplish. For example, it would take almost a year and a half just to set up a channel for the reported 100 million bitcoin users (100,000,000 * 2 / 400,000) / 365) = 1.4 years. With a billion users it take fourteen years just to set up a single channel for each wallet.

Thanks. I understand what you mean. Do you think this will be a practical limitation? It seems more likely that this will remain a spectre & tail risk but never functionally impact lightning adoption. It's hard to imagine hundreds of thousands - even tens of thousands - of users trying to open lightning channels for prolonged periods of time.

[Meathelmet]

Yes you are abrasive.
...
As for mining, I built my rigs in 2018, so they are paid for many times over. I also live at 10,000 feet so yes, I do enjoy that heat. #drama

I am not, facts might chafe you though.

And your rigs, bought in 2018 (20XX series, 2070s?) still run and mine (great!)...at what hash rate? 20M? So after all the upkeep, downtime and electricity, what is the bottomline? 1k year after taxes? Have you realised any wins? Re-invested? On the green? If so, good for you!
Especially as the 2018-2020 were tougher times regarding profit, but as you have stated that you are a hodler & you have heated the apartment so you have a head start there compared to many.

In my sphere of nerds, hackers, visionaries and plebs 70% have eaten shit, 25% broken even (after selling their rigs at right time) and 5% have made actual (proven) profit.

And boomer...dang... I think I am half a decade younger than you...

[CirqueScaler]

You really want your wife to see al the lap dances you bought? Companies want competitors to see their payments? Really? This is probably BTC's understated Achilles heel. In the real world, we don't care for our neighbors knowing our finances. Even families and loved ones don't share finances.

I don't think this is a realistic critique. My bitcoin wallet address is not public. And if it were made public, I could easily create a new one and/or mix.

All of this ignoring the primary function of SOV of course. Fair enough.

[pureantigravity]

Thanks. I understand what you mean. Do you think this will be a practical limitation? It seems more likely that this will remain a spectre & tail risk but never functionally impact lightning adoption. It's hard to imagine hundreds of thousands - even tens of thousands - of users trying to open lightning channels for prolonged periods of time.

The whole idea is to open it for a prolonged period of time. A channel is akin to a payment processor, say INTERAC or some bank card network. That enables fast payments with people using that processor's channels (McDonalds, Starbucks, etc. etc.). There will also be channels of channels (i.e. BNY Bank has a shared channel with INTERAC) etc. So it is essential that channels be reliable. Which they will if with real companies that can get sued in a real court of law. At the moment it is beta. Very beta. There really isn't any advantage versus just paying with your Mastercard or Visa. I don't see how it works if both sides are anonymous. This only works IMO where both sides know and trust each other AND have reliable wallet networks. There are bigger issues, like how much the changing value of BTC changes what someone charges when transacting - if BTC isn't stable, it ruins all other aspects to try and use it as regular money. And if no need to use it for regular money, then no need for LN.