Hut to hut with fishscales.

[HHTELE]

Have Vector BCs, considering taking them on a euro hut to hut in the spring. Oetztal region.

I have done the Haute Route, as well as a variation of the Silvretta Traverse, so I get the idea of the terrain. I probably have 20 or so days in on traditional base vectors and love the skis. I am new to the Vector BC, and love it for certain stuff. Because of our snowpack here in Maine, these have had limited use. I will be on these skis later today, taking advantage of the fishscales to access some low angle logging roads. I will also be using them for a week or so in Baxter, and are my first choice for some of the steep lines on Kathaddin, as well as general travel in some no-fall terrain. Paired with a SB x2 binding and Alpinist skins, they climb great, and they are the perfect dimensions/profile/flex for what I like doing.

But- I find the bases to be slow. Really slow. Some have described the drag of the fishscales to be like choosing the wrong wax on a traditional base. I often have the wrong wax, and these are much slower. Skiing at the resort, and being passed by people on rental skis on low angle traverses confirms it.

My question is whether the grip/glide trade off is worth it for a hut to hut in the Alps. Anybody using skis like this in terrain like this?

[angrysasquatch]

You can always use kickwax. I find it works pretty well for low angle rolly terrain when there's trail broken. Best part is you can use it on any ski and remove it when it's not useful to just have a regular ski. Not sure on your terrain though.

[SB]

What have you done in terms of base prep? You do know the Ptex base area needs glide wax and the fishscale area gets a liquid rub on treatment for best forward motion?

You could trim back the grip area with a base plane but that seems to defeet the purpose.

I would say you would be fine as long as you understand how to use them and the limitations. You would of course still need to bring skins along.

Edit to add, I have not yet had the chance to tour in the Yurp Alps. From what I gather its mostly skinning to get from place to place, some pretty involved mtneering and very nice skiing inbetween.

If you posted this over at wildsnow LouD would certainly have much to say about it.

[Alpinord]

The extruded/embossed fish scales of the Voile BC skis and others do need to be waxed with liquid or paste wax to improve glide and minimize icing and clumping. The problem is that extruded material doesn't hold the wax for very long. The milled patterned, sintered bases of Atomics & Fischers hold wax better and glide better, IMO. I'd suggest experimenting locally and periodically reapply the wax during pauses or breaks to see if you find improvement for various tours.

On my Charger BCs I considered roughing the scales a little with a brass brush or light sand paper to create more contact points for wax and possible breaking any suction created by the smooth, extruded scales. I discussed this at SIA with a couple Voile reps and one said he makes (IIRC) about 10 to 20 passes with a brass brush to achieve the same.

We also discussed why they chose the projections of extruded/embossed scales versus milled patterns into sintered bases for better glide, waxing, tuning and skiing. I hope more will press them on this because I think the versatility of these skis and the 'waxless/skinless' concept increases convenience for long slogs as well as quicker access to extend hike to, hike from and touring jaunts. Deciding when to use the skins vs not is part of the equation.

[SB]

Terry, thinking about making a pass or two with a brass riller bar(fine side) on my Charger scales.

Wonder if it would help verus the wire brush?

[Alpinord]

I would think the pressed in structure from the riller bar would temporarily improve glide until it relaxed. If it also abraded the base you'd get a similar structure to a brush or silicon carbide sandpaper that may also hold wax better.

Edit: I'm wondering if a brush or sand paper would be better (tip to tail) because they might conform to the variability of the scales better than a rigid bar?....or being rigid has some advantages?

[HHTELE]

All good points.

The bases have not gotten the attention they need.
Terry- recommendation for fishscale wax?

[Hugh Conway]

I'm trying to figure out what use the fishscales would be.

edit: that's in the context of the Oetztal and a hut to hut tour, I dont' understand the point of fishscales. Even based on the other tours he "did" there isn't much use for them. not "what do you use fishscales for in life"

[powder fiend]

Lots of good info in here. I've been neglecting the bases on my charger BCs, mostly ski them in pow so never really notice the bases on the downhill but have been doing alot of tours from the resort lately and they are painfully slow on cattracks and low angle groomers.

Hugh, they're great for long, flatish approaches, you get way more glide than with skins. I also like them for poking around on ridgetops, I'll changeover into all my downhill gear but stay in walkmode till I find the best drop in, then just lock my heels down and go.
One unexpected advantage is that they stay put alot better when you're putting your skis on in sketchy places, I'm not nearly as worried about them running away so long as the tips are up a little bit so the scales can dig in.

[Alpinord]

All good points.

The bases have not gotten the attention they need.
Terry- recommendation for fishscale wax?

Be sure to clean the scales first.

I've had good results using KUU White Lightening paste over the years as well as Briko-Maplus, paste, liquid and spray. The White Lightening comes in a nice sized tin. All are LF and I'd bet F4 and Toko Express would be fine. I like the pastes over the liquids and sprays for their convenient application with a pad you can work in the wax in virtually any condition. Let harden for 10 minutes or so before use.

By adding heat via a heat gun (or in the sun) you can bump the durability a notch or two. Also using the higher grade Briko-Maplus liquids and sprays will provide more durability and great glide assuming they'd adhere better to a 'structured' fish scale.

[powder fiend]

any issues with using skins after waxing the fishscales?

[icelanticskier]

scales rule. no transitions ftw. just accept that they are slower on the down.

rog

[Alpinord]

any issues with using skins after waxing the fishscales?

Not on my Atomics. I haven't had enough opportunity and time to gauge out the effects of skins and the wax on the Chargers. I suspect a reapplication of wax after taking off skins would be a good idea for better glide for turns, slogs, minimizing icing and rolling terrain. Hopefully this will help overall efficiency and reduce the need for using your skins....which is the point of these bases.

On my narrower Atomic Chugaches I spent some time using my old, skinny Montana Mohairs like 'kicker skins' with good results for steeper sections on mellower terrain. This makes me wonder if you could save some weight with narrower skins or kickers versus wall to wall skins on the Voiles. Hopefully, Big Steve can chime in on his views.

[NoPostholio]

This makes me wonder if you could save some weight with narrower skins or kickers versus wall to wall skins on the Voiles. Hopefully, Big Steve can chime in on his views.

^^^this - carry some 70/80mm mohairs and use only when you absolutely have to. It turns you into much better skinner, maybe slower but way more balanced to spend good chunks of time on fishscales.

[neck beard]

I like the scales for their simplicity, except when they are not being simple and need a level of wax forethought and management in advance (and again once in the field?) that I just can't be bothered with. I jumped on mine a few days ago in spring conditions and have to admit that the descent performance decline was significant when trying to ski tight trees smoothly in shitty snow. Too much grab and unpredictable pivot in the bases. Not enough predictable glide and subtle side-drift as required. And heaps of clumping.

I like mine, and have used them perhaps 50 days. But I think they are only good when they are good.

To answer the OP: if no one else in your group has them, don't bother.

[NoPostholio]

But I think they are only good when they are good.
To answer the OP: if no one else in your group has them, don't bother.

Both these - To reiterate on my post I must add that I grab these as ski of choice when there is 4" of fresh on fast grass - up and down seamlessly for a few hours - prob closer to never if there is real mtn involved anywhere in the trip.

[Quadzilla]

For me I have Vector BC's and would not be worried about any hut to hut and if it were rolling terrain I think they would dominate skiers on trad skis using skins. I guess it boils down on exactly what the terrain is on the tour and if I was going to ski some long steep lines once I got to my destination or was going to resort ski once I got to the destination. IMO and I am on my third season on these skis, they can ski most any terrain in a similar fashion to a similar size/weight trad ski, they just ski the decent a tad slower. Now, that is on wild BC type snow, for resort groomers they are butt slow, so much so you don't want to do that unless you are playing with your kids. So, maybe if the hut to hut is on a groomed trail and has a lot of decent they they would probably suck there too. WTBS, I really like my setup, I was on them today as well as my wife has a pair and we were touring with a guy who was on Stokes/Dynafits/skins and he couldn't stay up overall on a tour with a long approach and runout. The decents were soft heavy snow tree skiing and the difference was minimual.

Anyway, as usual pick the best tool for the job.

[HHTELE]

I'm trying to figure out what use the fishscales would be.

edit: that's in the context of the Oetztal and a hut to hut tour, I dont' understand the point of fishscales. Even based on the other tours he "did" there isn't much use for them. not "what do you use fishscales for in life"

The point of fishscales on this tour is the same as the point of fishscales on any tour. And in my case, my lightest skis are paired with my smoothest touring binding- and have fishscales. And, I trust the Vector on tricky or difficult terrain. But, like any gear choices, there are positives and negatives.

Totally agree with the point about not being the only one in a the group with fishscales on a tour like this. On this particular tour, 4/5 have the option of fishscales. The fifth is younger by 15-20 years than the rest of the group will have no trouble adapting and keeping up if there is a difference in gear.

Terry- thanks again for the input.

[Hugh Conway]

there's not rolling terrain or long approaches; there are set skin tracks, iced over tracks, other things that aren't scale friendly; I wouldn't see much use (or many "positives" that's the word you like) at all for them, really, in the context of that trip. the slow would be brutal. but you want to bring them, so bring them < shrug >

[Meathelmet]

there's not rolling terrain or long approaches; there are set skin tracks, iced over tracks, other things that aren't scale friendly

This.

If the conditions are "normal" for that time of the year (or a normal hochtour) you get what hugh described.
And as you have been around the bend, the normal stuff is : lift in the evening, skin early in the morning on hard snow, with crampons if it is really bad, bootpack,
abseil, ski steep stuff, then pick speed on the flattish traverse, repeat.
I think in some areas, in midwinter snow, the fishscales might actually be a good option for yo-yoing. But springtime with the iced skintracks and firn...

Have not personally skied fishscales, but couple of friends have used them. Good in the said cold snow conditions but what I read between the lines, you
can stubbornly do a lot of dumbish stuff in the springtime. The small slips wear you out and even might compromise your situation if you push too far.
But, one of the guys said the combo of dynafits+skicrampons were surprisingly good = you go as long as you can, put on the cramps, go as long as you can and
start to bootpack. Might be worth a shot if you know the terrain.
And unless there is a lot of those traverses that require max glide?

[AweShuksan]

But- I find the bases to be slow. Really slow. Some have described the drag of the fishscales to be like choosing the wrong wax on a traditional base. I often have the wrong wax, and these are much slower. Skiing at the resort, and being passed by people on rental skis on low angle traverses confirms it.

My question is whether the grip/glide trade off is worth it for a hut to hut in the Alps. Anybody using skis like this in terrain like this?

Touring on fish scale bases is worse than having sex while wearing two condoms.

Just say no.

You only live once.

Fish scales suck.

Any questions?

[GeezerSteve]

Sounds like the wrong route/conditions for fishscales. Notwithstanding the uninformed hate that this topic always brings fishscales are superior for many routes/conditions, but not good for firm/icy with long descending traverses.

[HHTELE]

there's not rolling terrain or long approaches; there are set skin tracks, iced over tracks, other things that aren't scale friendly; I wouldn't see much use (or many "positives" that's the word you like) at all for them, really, in the context of that trip. the slow would be brutal. but you want to bring them, so bring them < shrug >

Actually, I am far from committed to bringing them. More likely I'll bring some snoops/axls- 88 under foot, lightish, solid, and a bit short. Have used in similar terrain .

But since our abysmal eastern conditions haven't given me much opportunity to judge these skis, I figured I could benefit from the experience of others, like yourself, who have used them in varied conditions.

You are right about the scales themselves not having much use on icy tracks or early morning frozen. I have noticed that, on occasion, you make good points. Sometimes an interesting way of making the points. Are you like this in person?

[AweShuksan]

Sounds like the wrong route/conditions for fishscales. Notwithstanding the uninformed hate that this topic always brings fishscales are superior for many routes/conditions, but not good for firm/icy with long descending traverses.

Hi Steve,

Nothing uninformed about it. I've skied around 20 different skis with patterned bases and am well aware of the few conditions in which they have an edge. But I ski for enjoyment (like most skiers) and have always found pattern bases to lack the very qualities that make skiing so enjoyable for me.

[Alpinord]

True, fishscales have their limits and uses.

FTR, I just spent 5-10 minutes structuring and waxing my Chargers including 30 seconds applying wax, wait and buff. KUU White Lightening says to wait 5 minutes to dry then buff. Toko TF90 Express says wait 2 minutes. Briko-Maplus liquids typically suggest to wait 10 minutes to harden. Like gram counting and throwing a bunch of money to have light gear, spending a few minutes applying wax just might save you effort and some time. It may not be dramatic but it might be worth the small time and effort.

My brass roto brush is a little soft and did not provide much texture so I tried a couple passes with a stainless steel followed by a roto fiber tex, and waxed with paste, waited 6 minutes and buffed with soft nylon:



For those unfamiliar Charger BC fishcales left and (unwaxed) Atomic milled pattern, sintered bases right:



Off to 'Traversatory' to see how dissappointing the fishscale glide is on the catwalks compared to well prepped, sintered bases and to get some miles and turns on the Chargers in lots of fresh snow.