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  1. #501
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Zurich, Switzerland
    Posts
    350
    I don't have tested Dynafits vs IONs on the same or similar skies but I tend to believe that the IONs don't turn the heels as much while skiing as Dynafits. I run Dynafit TLT Radicals (or something that looks similar) with non-turning toes on super light touring skis and ION 12s on Lotus 120s. DIN is set around 7 or 8 on both stups.

  2. #502
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    272
    XXX-er, you are absolutely right. I read those articles. I also spent half an hour yesterday evening and now I can explain why I'm right too.


    This year I had to use my G3 Ions for the whole season as a 50/50 resort-touring, as I was waiting for CAST2 to finally ship. I ski pretty aggressively, I charge, jump from bumps, drop moderate cliffs - nothing super crazy but they took hell of a beating. I never treated them like many people care about pin bindings, I was always riding them as if I was on my P18. Totally no mercy. And they held it all. When I just started skiing them inbounds, I found out that with unlocked toes their stiff toe springs still release for me when I'm going fast on moguls or hard chop. I realise they are NOT designed and not supposed to be used like that. What I felt when those pre-releases happened was pain. Jokes. What I actually felt was that my ski flexed, kind of bended around the bump, while my legs were parallel to the ground. At this moment binding follows flexed ski and toe pin falls out the boot. I hope I explained that.... I guess I can pre-release like that even with regular alpine bindings if they are set to low din. 100% that wasn't toe icing issue, as it's my every run routine - toe locking/unlocking couple of times, cleaning springs, etc.

    I don't advice anyone to use ions against manufacturer recommendations. This is just 2 cents regarding my experience with them. What I figured out after playing with the binding yesterday is that plastic toe lever actually do affect release value. Small pic for description purpose:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Here you can see that in third click position toe lever stands on the notch on the bottom of plastic lever. When toe is trying to unlock in this mode it gets blocked by plastic lever that is fixed by these notches. But when it's in 1-click position, lever stands just on the edge. When big pressure is applied, lever slips from that edge unlocking the toe. So it's kinda not completely locked. You can simulate that situation by pressing boot sideways with hands. From my experience, when skiing in this position, lever adds extra support and increases the release value for the toe. I've never experienced unwanted releases with this toe setup and I successfully released when I crashed really hard.

    Once again, I realise it's not supposed to be used like that, but yeah, just my experience.

  3. #503
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Rossland BC
    Posts
    1,211
    Horses for fucking courses people. In case it’s not completely clear, the Ion is designed and works exceptionally well (functional, lightweight and reliable) as a ski touring specific binding. Sure you can use it as an effective resort binding if you limit yourself to the sort of forces usually associated with ski touring, ie. smooth controlled skiing, but if you’re determined to charge in them (or any other lightweight touring binding I have experience with) you’re going to experience pre-releases in situations that a resort binding would hold, you’re exposing yourself to potential injury in situations when a resort binding would safely release, and they’re going to wear and break prematurely compared to a resort binding.

  4. #504
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern BC
    Posts
    20,063
    yeah I can see all that 1 click 2 clik 3 click stuff but looking at the materials and knowing how shit actualy works I would say don't depend on it cause it looks more like its too good to be true, it doesnt look like it will work and none of the binding mfgers will tell you its part of how the binding is suposed to work if it was suposed to work someone would have done it after >20yrs

    I read about somebody on TGR hanging upside down in a crevasse from a locked dynafit toe

    Dynafit toe release is right up there with when my leather tele boots which would lever out of my Riva II's once a day when i fell learning to tele ... but i didn't call that binding release either
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  5. #505
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Not Brooklyn
    Posts
    6,429
    Quote Originally Posted by XXX-er View Post
    https://www.wildsnow.com/16117/g3-io...tech-bindings/

    https://www.wildsnow.com/18803/compa...er-g3-dynafit/

    I think one of the above is just a revamped test but there is probably way more than you will ever need to know about tech toes and there is nothing about more clicks of the toe lever affecting release values, if you think it does, I would re-read the^^ whole artical and Lou's FAQ's several times and think about what he wrote

    G3 actualy DOES have some of the highest spring values in Tech toe pieces, higher than Dynafit, suprisingly the 4 springs in an ION 12 toe piece test higher than 6 springs in a Kingpin toe piece even tho 6 looks sexier !

    And the ION 12 has significantly higher spring presssure than the ION 10

    but then are you more likeley to come out because the heel twisted out of the heel pins and you levered out of the toe pins OR because the toe pins released sideways?

    the IONs also both have a LOT of snow clearance under the springs so how much of a happy coincidental side benefit is that in toe retention?

    In any case an important factor in the decision to buy ION 12 might be ... how fat you are?
    I remember those tests. I greatly appreciate Lou's work on this, but don't think the tests actually tell the whole story. I'm not sure Lou would claim that they do. The main comparison test was done with the toes full closed, whereas when they are clamped on a boot the springs are under some tension. It also doesn't account for tow wing geometry. I'm not saying the results are meaningless. I'm saying there are other factors at play, almost certainly including some I haven't considered.

    I bring this up because I've been able to ski harder on Speed Radicals, not withstanding the exploding heel issue, and SSL 2.0's than Verticals without unwanted toe release, even though the toe clamping strength in the test is higher for Verticals.

  6. #506
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    180
    Nice pictures, and interesting observation on the lever HukuTa,

    Not sure I'd put it down to design vs. wear (or ???) on that first notch vs. others, but that behavior is clearly present on yours*.

    I've just assumed that the multiple notches on the lever were to take up slack due to eng/mfg variances and wear that change the effective distances between the sockets. This blog post refers to this as "Dim A":

    http://www.earnyourturns.com/32833/i...n-tech-system/

    On my LTs, it looks like the notches are in an eccentric/cammed arrangement around the pin/fulcrum. (That is not so obvious in your pics). That's why I assumed that:
    - The lock was changing distance between pins when locked, not some sort of retention force (locked = locked -> refer back to that link for how Ions tested)
    - Once the cam was snugged, any additional pressure put on it would mainly just have a negative impacts on the plastic lever itself being the softest part of the now-rigid system

    My thoughts are FWIW, but I do suggest reading the linked blog. Come to think of it, ignore everything I've said, and read that post!

    Good discussion, Team!
    Paul

    * Full disclosure -> I'm super fat, have Ions on a fat ski I only use in soft snow or corn, and both skin and ski with them completely unlocked. No problems/unwanted releases except on prolonged sidehills where I'm just asking for it. I'm not allowed to touch P18s

  7. #507
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    northern BC
    Posts
    20,063
    thats ^^ a good artical and like the rest of them its asking more questions than it answers

    the big question is still what works for YOU?

    For me its a Verticalwith separate adjustable horizontal / vertical release adjustments, bump the vert release up one higher than the horizontal and I KNOW it works

    with all the compromises, unless you are rando racing in the lycra I just don't get the minimalist bindings
    Lee Lau - xxx-er is the laziest Asian canuck I know

  8. #508
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    vernon
    Posts
    2,544
    Not sure if addressed yet but I adjusted my Ion's last night for new boots and now one of the brakes will not deploy. Anyone else have this happen?
    www.skevikskis.com Check em out!

  9. #509
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    3,734
    Are you beyond the end/stop point in terms of heel track adjustment? It's been a while, but I recall that adjusting beyond the limit (one direction or the other) affects brake locking or deployment

    ... Thom
    Galibier Design
    crafting technology in service of music

  10. #510
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    vernon
    Posts
    2,544
    ^^^ Could be close. Only adjusted 5mm. Will take another look. Thanks. Other one is working fine though
    www.skevikskis.com Check em out!

  11. #511
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    BC
    Posts
    35
    Apologies for the thread necromancy. Just mounted Ion 12s with the new rotation lock feature. In ski mode the turret is still able to move up and down a mm or two, making a very noticeable clicking as weight is applied and removed from the heel. Not as much travel as when engaging and disengaging the lock in tour mode, but unlike the lock there's spring tension that pushes the turret back up when weight is removed, so it's a constant click*click*click*click*click felt through the boot (and heard) as a hint of weight is put on the heel and then removed.

    Just seems odd given how little play there is everywhere else on this brand new binding. G3 says the play is normal, but the constant clicking is slightly disconcerting and I'm wondering if this is normal with these bindings, having no prior experience with G3 stuff.

  12. #512
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Posts
    1,002
    Quote Originally Posted by eggsbenedict View Post
    Apologies for the thread necromancy. Just mounted Ion 12s with the new rotation lock feature. In ski mode the turret is still able to move up and down a mm or two, making a very noticeable clicking as weight is applied and removed from the heel. Not as much travel as when engaging and disengaging the lock in tour mode, but unlike the lock there's spring tension that pushes the turret back up when weight is removed, so it's a constant click*click*click*click*click felt through the boot (and heard) as a hint of weight is put on the heel and then removed.

    Just seems odd given how little play there is everywhere else on this brand new binding. G3 says the play is normal, but the constant clicking is slightly disconcerting and I'm wondering if this is normal with these bindings, having no prior experience with G3 stuff.
    Curious about this too. Just picked up a pair of ion 12s. Sounds annoying to be clicking while skiing. Anyone else with the newer ions experience this?

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