G3 ION tech binding

[LeoK]

I don't have tested Dynafits vs IONs on the same or similar skies but I tend to believe that the IONs don't turn the heels as much while skiing as Dynafits. I run Dynafit TLT Radicals (or something that looks similar) with non-turning toes on super light touring skis and ION 12s on Lotus 120s. DIN is set around 7 or 8 on both stups.

[HukuTa_KydecHuk]

XXX-er, you are absolutely right. I read those articles. I also spent half an hour yesterday evening and now I can explain why I'm right too.


This year I had to use my G3 Ions for the whole season as a 50/50 resort-touring, as I was waiting for CAST2 to finally ship. I ski pretty aggressively, I charge, jump from bumps, drop moderate cliffs - nothing super crazy but they took hell of a beating. I never treated them like many people care about pin bindings, I was always riding them as if I was on my P18. Totally no mercy. And they held it all. When I just started skiing them inbounds, I found out that with unlocked toes their stiff toe springs still release for me when I'm going fast on moguls or hard chop. I realise they are NOT designed and not supposed to be used like that. What I felt when those pre-releases happened was pain. Jokes. What I actually felt was that my ski flexed, kind of bended around the bump, while my legs were parallel to the ground. At this moment binding follows flexed ski and toe pin falls out the boot. I hope I explained that.... I guess I can pre-release like that even with regular alpine bindings if they are set to low din. 100% that wasn't toe icing issue, as it's my every run routine - toe locking/unlocking couple of times, cleaning springs, etc.

I don't advice anyone to use ions against manufacturer recommendations. This is just 2 cents regarding my experience with them. What I figured out after playing with the binding yesterday is that plastic toe lever actually do affect release value. Small pic for description purpose:


Here you can see that in third click position toe lever stands on the notch on the bottom of plastic lever. When toe is trying to unlock in this mode it gets blocked by plastic lever that is fixed by these notches. But when it's in 1-click position, lever stands just on the edge. When big pressure is applied, lever slips from that edge unlocking the toe. So it's kinda not completely locked. You can simulate that situation by pressing boot sideways with hands. From my experience, when skiing in this position, lever adds extra support and increases the release value for the toe. I've never experienced unwanted releases with this toe setup and I successfully released when I crashed really hard.

Once again, I realise it's not supposed to be used like that, but yeah, just my experience.

[kootenayskier]

Horses for fucking courses people. In case it’s not completely clear, the Ion is designed and works exceptionally well (functional, lightweight and reliable) as a ski touring specific binding. Sure you can use it as an effective resort binding if you limit yourself to the sort of forces usually associated with ski touring, ie. smooth controlled skiing, but if you’re determined to charge in them (or any other lightweight touring binding I have experience with) you’re going to experience pre-releases in situations that a resort binding would hold, you’re exposing yourself to potential injury in situations when a resort binding would safely release, and they’re going to wear and break prematurely compared to a resort binding.

[XXX-er]

yeah I can see all that 1 click 2 clik 3 click stuff but looking at the materials and knowing how shit actualy works I would say don't depend on it cause it looks more like its too good to be true, it doesnt look like it will work and none of the binding mfgers will tell you its part of how the binding is suposed to work if it was suposed to work someone would have done it after >20yrs

I read about somebody on TGR hanging upside down in a crevasse from a locked dynafit toe

Dynafit toe release is right up there with when my leather tele boots which would lever out of my Riva II's once a day when i fell learning to tele ... but i didn't call that binding release either

[I've seen black diamonds!]

https://www.wildsnow.com/16117/g3-io...tech-bindings/

https://www.wildsnow.com/18803/compa...er-g3-dynafit/

I think one of the above is just a revamped test but there is probably way more than you will ever need to know about tech toes and there is nothing about more clicks of the toe lever affecting release values, if you think it does, I would re-read the^^ whole artical and Lou's FAQ's several times and think about what he wrote

G3 actualy DOES have some of the highest spring values in Tech toe pieces, higher than Dynafit, suprisingly the 4 springs in an ION 12 toe piece test higher than 6 springs in a Kingpin toe piece even tho 6 looks sexier !

And the ION 12 has significantly higher spring presssure than the ION 10

but then are you more likeley to come out because the heel twisted out of the heel pins and you levered out of the toe pins OR because the toe pins released sideways?

the IONs also both have a LOT of snow clearance under the springs so how much of a happy coincidental side benefit is that in toe retention?

In any case an important factor in the decision to buy ION 12 might be ... how fat you are?

I remember those tests. I greatly appreciate Lou's work on this, but don't think the tests actually tell the whole story. I'm not sure Lou would claim that they do. The main comparison test was done with the toes full closed, whereas when they are clamped on a boot the springs are under some tension. It also doesn't account for tow wing geometry. I'm not saying the results are meaningless. I'm saying there are other factors at play, almost certainly including some I haven't considered.

I bring this up because I've been able to ski harder on Speed Radicals, not withstanding the exploding heel issue, and SSL 2.0's than Verticals without unwanted toe release, even though the toe clamping strength in the test is higher for Verticals.

[JPaul]

Nice pictures, and interesting observation on the lever HukuTa,

Not sure I'd put it down to design vs. wear (or ???) on that first notch vs. others, but that behavior is clearly present on yours*.

I've just assumed that the multiple notches on the lever were to take up slack due to eng/mfg variances and wear that change the effective distances between the sockets. This blog post refers to this as "Dim A":

http://www.earnyourturns.com/32833/i...n-tech-system/

On my LTs, it looks like the notches are in an eccentric/cammed arrangement around the pin/fulcrum. (That is not so obvious in your pics). That's why I assumed that:
- The lock was changing distance between pins when locked, not some sort of retention force (locked = locked -> refer back to that link for how Ions tested)
- Once the cam was snugged, any additional pressure put on it would mainly just have a negative impacts on the plastic lever itself being the softest part of the now-rigid system

My thoughts are FWIW, but I do suggest reading the linked blog. Come to think of it, ignore everything I've said, and read that post!

Good discussion, Team!
Paul

* Full disclosure -> I'm super fat, have Ions on a fat ski I only use in soft snow or corn, and both skin and ski with them completely unlocked. No problems/unwanted releases except on prolonged sidehills where I'm just asking for it. I'm not allowed to touch P18s

[XXX-er]

thats ^^ a good artical and like the rest of them its asking more questions than it answers

the big question is still what works for YOU?

For me its a Verticalwith separate adjustable horizontal / vertical release adjustments, bump the vert release up one higher than the horizontal and I KNOW it works

with all the compromises, unless you are rando racing in the lycra I just don't get the minimalist bindings

[el hefe]

Not sure if addressed yet but I adjusted my Ion's last night for new boots and now one of the brakes will not deploy. Anyone else have this happen?

[galibier_numero_un]

Are you beyond the end/stop point in terms of heel track adjustment? It's been a while, but I recall that adjusting beyond the limit (one direction or the other) affects brake locking or deployment

... Thom

[el hefe]

^^^ Could be close. Only adjusted 5mm. Will take another look. Thanks. Other one is working fine though

[eggsbenedict]

Apologies for the thread necromancy. Just mounted Ion 12s with the new rotation lock feature. In ski mode the turret is still able to move up and down a mm or two, making a very noticeable clicking as weight is applied and removed from the heel. Not as much travel as when engaging and disengaging the lock in tour mode, but unlike the lock there's spring tension that pushes the turret back up when weight is removed, so it's a constant click*click*click*click*click felt through the boot (and heard) as a hint of weight is put on the heel and then removed.

Just seems odd given how little play there is everywhere else on this brand new binding. G3 says the play is normal, but the constant clicking is slightly disconcerting and I'm wondering if this is normal with these bindings, having no prior experience with G3 stuff.

[bern43]

Apologies for the thread necromancy. Just mounted Ion 12s with the new rotation lock feature. In ski mode the turret is still able to move up and down a mm or two, making a very noticeable clicking as weight is applied and removed from the heel. Not as much travel as when engaging and disengaging the lock in tour mode, but unlike the lock there's spring tension that pushes the turret back up when weight is removed, so it's a constant click*click*click*click*click felt through the boot (and heard) as a hint of weight is put on the heel and then removed.

Just seems odd given how little play there is everywhere else on this brand new binding. G3 says the play is normal, but the constant clicking is slightly disconcerting and I'm wondering if this is normal with these bindings, having no prior experience with G3 stuff.

Curious about this too. Just picked up a pair of ion 12s. Sounds annoying to be clicking while skiing. Anyone else with the newer ions experience this?

[ntblanks]

WTT: Looking for 115mm Ion 12 brakes

*Let me know if cross posting is verboten at TGR. Don't want to get the Kracken all riled up.

================

I've got a pair of 95mm and looking to trade for 115mm.

Used but good condition.

Would consider buying, too.

Original post here.

[1000-oaks]

Regarding the bit of vertical play in the heel (due to plastic spring thimble and heel post tolerances), it probably won't be noticable when skiing. It just seems out of place compared to the super-tight all-metal toe assembly.

[djtorr505]

Hi, has anyone here used both the ion and the zed? Is it worth the money to get the zed or do you find the ions hold up well enough?

[djtorr505]

Specifically I'm looking at the Ion LT, since I don't want brakes.

[Va Ki Bo]

Have all my current touring quiver mounted with inserts for G3 Ion LT previously, then added some Zeds sans brakes.
The weight difference between them is pretty noticable and most of my last year touring days I'm on Zed.

Zed's toes are perfect: less gramms but no compromises I can see, so one have to choose between Ion's or Zed's heel piece.

1) I really like the idea and performance of "stomp pad" on Zed, which is missing on stock Ion LT (have to make my own DIY).
Also noticably higher stack height on Ion.

2) Proprietary G3 crampons incompatibility is still there for Zed (again: due to lower stack height and not enough clearance under the boot toe and ski top sheet).

3) Plastic Zed heels are more fragile and require a bit more care, besides skiing as well. I can easily see the situation when fallen ski hit could lead to the Zed's heel cracking. Carefull handling, packing, transportation, etc.

As I've closed crampons issue for me and I'm pretty light on my gear - Zed is no brainer for multiday touring expeditions, hut trips, etc.
And Ion LT - for daily use only.

[Wapow]

Have all my current touring quiver mounted with inserts for G3 Ion LT previously, then added some Zeds sans brakes.
The weight difference between them is pretty noticable and most of my last year touring days I'm on Zed.

Zed's toes are perfect: less gramms but no compromises I can see, so one have to choose between Ion's or Zed's heel piece.

1) I really like the idea and performance of "stomp pad" on Zed, which is missing on stock Ion LT (have to make my own DIY).
Also noticably higher stack height on Ion.

2) Proprietary G3 crampons incompatibility is still there for Zed (again: due to lower stack height and not enough clearance under the boot toe and ski top sheet).

3) Plastic Zed heels are more fragile and require a bit more care, besides skiing as well. I can easily see the situation when fallen ski hit could lead to the Zed's heel cracking. Carefull handling, packing, transportation, etc.

As I've closed crampons issue for me and I'm pretty light on my gear - Zed is no brainer for multiday touring expeditions, hut trips, etc.
And Ion LT - for daily use only.

I've had Ion's and now have Zeds. The crampon issue is dependent on the boot you're using. Small footed people with the same boot can have the issue, while bigger footed people may not. My 28.5 ZPGs do not have an issue, but the guy who posted this issue on this site did have the issue with a smaller size of the same. I pinged G3 on this issue, and they claimed ignorance. Zed brakes failed on me 3 times before I finally did a hack to fix them (replaced a pressed in pin with a screw and nylock nut). If you're not concerned about brakes, I'd go Zeds.

[Va Ki Bo]

Small footed people with the same boot can have the issue, while bigger footed people may not.

Yep, tried Backland Carbon (26) and Vulcan/Hoji Pro/Free (25) and none of them fits.

[homemadesalsa]

I blew apart the Zed heels after maybe a season. I weigh 130 plus gear. The zed brakes are crap. They warrantied them with Ions, which are bomber but a skootch heavier. I'll take it, for not having to do major binding repairs in east jesus.

Sent from my SM-A600A using Tapatalk

[xyz]

Sorry thread drift and may have been discussed, but I read the Zed can’t transition from tour to ski with pole and boot etc. True??

[Jongle]

Sorry thread drift and may have been discussed, but I read the Zed can’t transition from tour to ski with pole and boot etc. True??

False. It's easily done using the same technique as shown for the Ion at 00:40 in this vid: https://youtu.be/mQkRfQsNIJ0?t=41

[kootenayskier]

Sorry thread drift and may have been discussed, but I read the Zed can’t transition from tour to ski with pole and boot etc. True??

I find the Zed brake adds a shit load of resistance to rotating the heel piece, and that I have to crank on them to return to ski mode. I’m sure it’s possible, but not easy to do so without removing your skis. Without brakes installed it’d be the same as any tech binding.

[xyz]

I find the Zed brake adds a shit load of resistance to rotating the heel piece, and that I have to crank on them to return to ski mode. I’m sure it’s possible, but not easy to do so without removing your skis. Without brakes installed it’d be the same as any tech binding.

Hmm looks like I’ll be recycling my Ions from current skis my new ones. I can’t live with having to take my skis off to transition to ski mode for the next number of seasons.

[LeoK]

hey guys

I encountered two problems with my Ions yesterday and wanted to ask how to fix them (probably was discussed before but would be nice if somebody could help and point me to the right page / thread).

1. problem: they are switching to skimode sometimes when skinning -> sure this was discussed before but forgot if there was something I coudl do about it

2. problem: the pin around wich the climbing aides flip keeps coming out wich will lead to losing the climbing aid sooner or later. Any experiences with a fix for that?

thx!