22 designs Vice toe box question

**jbultman** · 11-16-2013, 10:49 AM

Hey,

I recently purchased a pair of Vices for my line prophet 90s. I mounted them this morning but for some reason I can't get the duck bill completely in the toe box (metal piece)

I don't know what I need to do. Heat up the metal and jam my boot in there or what. I can't ski with 1/3 of my boots toe in.
Help please!!!
Thanks

PB · 11-16-2013, 01:12 PM

75 mm duck bills have a history of variable dimensions; whatever you do, do NOT try to make the metal fit the boot. Shave/file/sand the duck bill until it fits. What boot?

**XXX-er** · 11-16-2013, 01:33 PM

Does your boot fit properly in other bindings or is it also brand new ?

have you tried calling your vendor or 22designs?

**jbultman** · 11-16-2013, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by XXX-er

Does your boot fit properly in other bindings or is it also brand new ?

have you tried calling your vendor or 22designs?

Originally Posted by PB

75 mm duck bills have a history of variable dimensions; whatever you do, do NOT try to make the metal fit the boot. Shave/file/sand the duck bill until it fits. What boot?

I'm deciding to upgrade everything this year; boots, bindings and skis. My old boots are garmont synergy from 2002ish. I have yet to get my new boots in they are new crispi xr. My old boots fit perfect in my hammerheads.
I have yet to give 22 designs a call. I might do that tomorrow or Monday. The only thing that I can think of that I did when mounting them is squeeze the bottom of the metal toe piece together to get the screw holes to line up with the plastic holes. Could I have got that too tight, then thus the boots wouldn't fit in?

**XXX-er** · 11-16-2013, 06:29 PM

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say but anyhow if you don't know what your problem is then swap things around to by process of elimination figure out what is not your problem

so if your new crispis fit in your old HH's the same as your old Garmonts do then both boots were shaped to the same standard and its likely not a boot problem so don't fuckwith the boots

which means its a binding problem, possibly new defective but more likely something you did on the instal

**jbultman** · 11-16-2013, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by XXX-er

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say but anyhow if you don't know what your problem is then swap things around to by process of elimination figure out what is not your problem

so if your new crispis fit in your old HH's the same as your old Garmonts do then both boots were shaped to the same standard and its likely not a boot problem so don't fuckwith the boots

which means its a binding problem, possibly new defective but more likely something you did on the instal

So I tried my brothers bd pushs in both the hhs and the vices, and my garmonts in his g3 Targas and my boots fit In the g3s fine and his bds don't fit in my vices but they do fit in my hh bindings.

Im beginning to think that I should unscrew the screws and redo after I get my new boots.

What I was trying to say is that the holes on the bottom of the toe piece didn't match up with the holes in the plastic piece. Thus I bent metal piece to get the holes matched up and screwed the screws in. Better?

PB · 11-17-2013, 10:24 AM

If your really positive it's a mis-mount problem (sounds like it is), I would still lean towards just "dressing" the duck bill to fit the toe piece to avoid too many holes too close together .... unless we're talking major surgery on the duck bill.

**XXX-er** · 11-17-2013, 01:18 PM

I think you wana fix the cause as opposed to the symptom, dressing the duck bill ^^ would work but then the boot you alter would be sloppy in any other bindings unless you alter those bindings as well AND you would also have to dress every boot you want to use to fit in the binding in question

Originally Posted by jbultman

So I tried my brothers bd pushs in both the hhs and the vices, and my garmonts in his g3 Targas and my boots fit In the g3s fine and his bds don't fit in my vices but they do fit in my hh bindings.

Im beginning to think that I should unscrew the screws and redo after I get my new boots.

What I was trying to say is that the holes on the bottom of the toe piece didn't match up with the holes in the plastic piece. Thus I bent metal piece to get the holes matched up and screwed the screws in. Better?

As already mentioned there could be differences in duckbills of boots but now you have formed your own concensus with 2 different boots and figured out its something wrong with your mount

http://www.twentytwodesigns.com/asse...Viceposter.pdf

if the holes didn't line up it sounds like either the plastic base plate or the toe box are out of spec which wouldn't be unheard of in what looks to be a brand new product so IMO TALK TO 22DESIGNS soonest ... if you have a problem they also have a problem and they want to fix it

One idea might be to pull the binding off your skis and fuck around with the mount on a piece of 2x4

**Rads63** · 11-17-2013, 01:35 PM

Have you called 22 designs, if so what did they have to say. It sounds like a binding problem. I don't think you should have to bend metal or shaping you duck bill to fit the binders. It should just fit. I would like to know what 22 has to say about this problem

PB · 11-17-2013, 06:22 PM

Yeah - you're right, XXX; given the minimal amount JB indicated he could get his boot into the toe piece, it probably would require too much boot removal, thereby jeopardizing the use of the boot on other skis/bindings. Worse case scenario: pull the first mount, slap a adapter plate/riser on the skis (different hole pattern) and then remount .... but check w/22designs first.

**Flyoverland Captive** · 11-17-2013, 06:36 PM

Just unscrew the binding, and reuse the same holes. Not a big deal, no need to redrill or use plates.

I've mounted a ton of HH/Axls/Vices. While you do have to adjust things a bit to get the metal and plastic pieces to align, you shouldn't have to actually bend anything. Can you post a pic of the binding?

**jbultman** · 11-17-2013, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by Flyoverland Captive

Just unscrew the binding, and reuse the same holes. Not a big deal, no need to redrill or use plates.

I've mounted a ton of HH/Axls/Vices. While you do have to adjust things a bit to get the metal and plastic pieces to align, you shouldn't have to actually bend anything. Can you post a pic of the binding?

I was under the assumption that I can't unscrew the screws and redo the install in the same holes. can I?
What would I do; unscrew the holes, redrill out the excess glue residue, retap the holes, fix the problem and remount? I think that would be the easiest if at all possible

I have yet to call 22 designs because I think it is a mounting problem, considering I've never mounted a 22 designs binding before. And... I'm going to wait until my boots come in to do anything. They should be here sometime this week, and who knows they may fit, thus rendering the problem void.

Here are some pictures.... ( I couldn't get them to upload on the site itself)

**note: the marks on the boot in the 3rd picture are from me bending the boot with the heel attached trying to get the boot to snug up into the toebox, with no avail.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3B...it?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3B...it?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3B...it?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3B...it?usp=sharing

**XXX-er** · 11-17-2013, 07:59 PM

Is the Vice new this year cuz I have never heard of them ?
'
but its been awhile since I loved telemark

PD is PD

**Flyoverland Captive** · 11-17-2013, 08:22 PM

Those pics look fine to me. Your boot is never gonna fit completely in the toe; that looks skiable by my admittedly shitty standards.

As for re-using holes: If you back the screws out carefully, and screwed them in correctly in the first place (by which I mean you tapped, then cleared the debris, then screwed the screw in snug but not tight) the holes are reusable. Just make sure they're clean, put in your glue of choice, and snug 'em up. I've done this for many of my skis (replacing broken HH shims) and have never had a failure.

**jbultman** · 11-17-2013, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by Flyoverland Captive

Those pics look fine to me. Your boot is never gonna fit completely in the toe; that looks skiable by my admittedly shitty standards.

As for re-using holes: If you back the screws out carefully, and screwed them in correctly in the first place (by which I mean you tapped, then cleared the debris, then screwed the screw in snug but not tight) the holes are reusable. Just make sure they're clean, put in your glue of choice, and snug 'em up. I've done this for many of my skis (replacing broken HH shims) and have never had a failure.

I guess I'm just used to skiing in my hammerheads where the duck bill goes almost completely in.
When I mounted I did follow all the steps that you said for correctly mounting.

What would you do in this case;
1. Remount
2. Shave a little of the boots duck bill
3. Ski them the way they are

Thanks

**Flyoverland Captive** · 11-17-2013, 08:39 PM

I'd ski em, and see how it goes. My guess is they'll be fine. What pivot are you using? Try going for maximum power at first to get things 'seated in' then back off to your comfortable setting.

**Rads63** · 11-17-2013, 10:00 PM

I second skiing them.

**jbultman** · 11-18-2013, 07:28 AM

Originally Posted by Rads63

I second skiing them.

Originally Posted by Flyoverland Captive

I'd ski em, and see how it goes. My guess is they'll be fine. What pivot are you using? Try going for maximum power at first to get things 'seated in' then back off to your comfortable setting.

So ski them....Even with the damage that the binding occurred during a couple flexes of the boot? seen in picture 3 in my previous post (#12)
What do I do then shave the duck bill where the marks are? (Shave/grind/file/sand with what) then what?

What would the difference be between a new boot's duckbill and old boot's duckbill? What's the difference in variable heights in them? (i.e, could the crispi's reasonably fit?)

**Flyoverland Captive** · 11-18-2013, 01:51 PM

That damage looks pretty minimal, and is common as hell. Man, you shoulda seen my boots; all of them were waaaay more chewed up than that, but it never affected skiability. Even my NTN boots are chewed up.

You're over-thinking this. Seriously, go ski 'em, and see how it goes.

**Rads63** · 11-18-2013, 06:22 PM

Maybe this will help you,I hope it does! I skied them like this for 30 days last winter.

**rabbit** · 11-18-2013, 08:05 PM

I add another vote to skiing them.
Btw, Jbultman; have you tried using your favourite brand of Lubricant?

PB · 11-19-2013, 10:58 AM

Just looked at the photos: while not perfect, much better fit than I thought. No need for anything major. Either sand/shave the duck bills, or back the screws out a turn or two and slightly spread the toe piece with some kind of temporary brace and then re-screw.

**jbultman** · 11-19-2013, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by PB

Just looked at the photos: while not perfect, much better fit than I thought. No need for anything major. Either sand/shave the duck bills, or back the screws out a turn or two and slightly spread the toe piece with some kind of temporary brace and then re-screw.

"back the screws out a turn or two and slightly spread the toe piece with some kind of temporary brace and then re-screw"

Wouldn't that mess up the glue; to back a screw out a turn or two adjust the binding then screw it back in?

My Crispi's should be here today so...... we'll see how they fit

PB · 11-19-2013, 03:51 PM

I've done it several times, with no consequences, on older HHs with epoxy for the original mount. If you're still dubious, remove the screws, add just a small dab of glue in the hole, start the screws (maybe half way down), then spread and brace the toe piece, followed by completing the tightening of the screws.

**jbultman** · 11-19-2013, 09:02 PM

Originally Posted by PB

I've done it several times, with no consequences, on older HHs with epoxy for the original mount. If you're still dubious, remove the screws, add just a small dab of glue in the hole, start the screws (maybe half way down), then spread and brace the toe piece, followed by completing the tightening of the screws.

I got my new boots in today...

They fit a little better in the toe piece. I'm just going to do what flyoverland and rads said and ski 'em and see