IBD?

[cmcrawfo]

....people who know a hell of a lot more about this disease than you or I don't think that diet is a real risk factor.

It should be noted, that in general, inflammatory bowel disorders are not realty understood. however, in regard to Diet as a risk factor, I think should go back to the text books or at the least, limit your commentary.

"Diet — Food antigens are thought to trigger an immunologic response resulting in the development of IBD. However, specific pathogenic antigens have not been identified. While studies attempting to associate specific diets with the development of IBD have had inconsistent results, the data suggest that a "Western" style diet (processed, fried, and sugary foods) is associated with an increased risk of developing Crohn's disease, and possibly ulcerative colitis.

A number of studies have implicated dietary risk factors:

Hypersensitivity to cow's milk protein in infancy has been postulated as a cause of IBD, especially ulcerative colitis. A survey of IBD patients and controls noted cow's milk hypersensitivity was more common in patients with ulcerative colitis and Crohn’s disease compared with controls (21, 9, and 3 percent, respectively) [63].
Refined sugar intake has been linked to the development of IBD, especially Crohn’s disease [64-66].
Decreased vegetable and fiber intake has been associated with the development of ulcerative colitis and Crohn’s disease [65,67].
Increased dietary intake of total fat, animal fat, polyunsaturated fatty acids, and milk protein has been correlated with an increased incidence of ulcerative colitis and Crohn’s disease [66-68] and relapse in patients with ulcerative colitis [69]. In addition, a higher intake of omega-3 fatty acids and a lower intake of omega-6 fatty acids have been associated with a lower risk of developing Crohn’s disease [67]."

Copy Pasta from a very reputable, up to date peer reviewed source.

[cmcrawfo]

I always thought the information about smoking and UC was very interesting. Some studies have shown that smoking is actually protective in relation to the development of UC , but a risk factor for the development of CD. It has also been showing that smoking cessation in UC patients can increase risk of relapse. .... smoke'em if ya got'em I guess.

[DasBlunt]

Edited my previous post now. Symptoms, scopes and biopsies showed the inflammation getting progressively worse over the first week of steroid treatments, to the point where rupture was a genuine life-threatening concern.

"An extreme example"? Yeah, from how my surgeon spoke at the time it sounds like it was. From what I've read, a lot of people put up with mild symptoms all of their life and I have two friends with Crohn's disease which is now under control but their diet is very important.

Whatever. I'm now exactly where I want to be, ski 80-100 days per year, and have no symptoms besides shitting more than the average man.

Causes? I don't care. At all. I'm cured.

Diverticulitis can cause the same symptoms. The causes of diverticulitis are vast. again, glad you are ok, but your example is unusual and for this discussion should be ignored.

[DasBlunt]

I always thought the information about smoking and UC was very interesting. Some studies have shown that smoking is actually protective in relation to the development of UC , but a risk factor for the development of CD. It has also been showing that smoking cessation in UC patients can increase risk of relapse. .... smoke'em if ya got'em I guess.

better yet, smoke weed!

Fly ski is just a troll, just getting his kicks bashing people in the internet, his responses are very typical, and can be used for debate. The stupidity is high, answers are low from that type.

[cmcrawfo]

better yet, smoke weed!

No kidding. A large number if IBD patient use pot to manage their symptoms. There is a growing body of evidence to support its use as a complementary therapy.

I always thought the response was due to the anticholinergic effects of pot, but super smart people with microscopes and shit say it has to do with CB2 receptors or something.... what ever they are.

[LC]

Diverticulitis can cause the same symptoms. The causes of diverticulitis are vast. again, glad you are ok, but your example is unusual and for this discussion should be ignored.

OK, sorry for contributing to your thread.

[DasBlunt]

OK, sorry for contributing to your thread.

Sorry dude, that was not the intent of my comment and I really did not intend any ill will. There is such a wide range for many of these "diseases", yours for sure is the extreme. No one knows how you ate/drank, lived your life, weight, EXACTLY what happened that lead to the removal of your colon. The OP seems far off from this.

[flyandski365]

It should be noted, that in general, inflammatory bowel disorders are not realty understood. however, in regard to Diet as a risk factor, I think should go back to the text books or at the least, limit your commentary.

"Diet — Food antigens are thought to trigger an immunologic response resulting in the development of IBD. However, specific pathogenic antigens have not been identified. While studies attempting to associate specific diets with the development of IBD have had inconsistent results, the data suggest that a "Western" style diet (processed, fried, and sugary foods) is associated with an increased risk of developing Crohn's disease, and possibly ulcerative colitis.

A number of studies have implicated dietary risk factors:

Hypersensitivity to cow's milk protein in infancy has been postulated as a cause of IBD, especially ulcerative colitis. A survey of IBD patients and controls noted cow's milk hypersensitivity was more common in patients with ulcerative colitis and Crohn’s disease compared with controls (21, 9, and 3 percent, respectively) [63].
Refined sugar intake has been linked to the development of IBD, especially Crohn’s disease [64-66].
Decreased vegetable and fiber intake has been associated with the development of ulcerative colitis and Crohn’s disease [65,67].
Increased dietary intake of total fat, animal fat, polyunsaturated fatty acids, and milk protein has been correlated with an increased incidence of ulcerative colitis and Crohn’s disease [66-68] and relapse in patients with ulcerative colitis [69]. In addition, a higher intake of omega-3 fatty acids and a lower intake of omega-6 fatty acids have been associated with a lower risk of developing Crohn’s disease [67]."

Copy Pasta from a very reputable, up to date peer reviewed source.

Fair enough, just not what I had seen so far and DB outright dismissal of anything other than diet modification has me irritated. If you look at the abstract I posted a little while back, it supports some of same things you posted above.

[DasBlunt]

Fair enough, just not what I had seen so far and DB outright dismissal of anything other than diet modification has me irritated. If you look at the abstract I posted a little while back, it supports some of same things you posted above.

My only outright dismissal is leukemia drugs. You don't read very well, do you?

[flyandski365]

My only outright dismissal is leukemia drugs. You don't read very well, do you?

Honestly what really peeved me was acting like the docs made the wrong call in LC's case. You know little about his case, he is fine now, and you still act like you know better than his docs what's best for him.

[DasBlunt]

Honestly what really peeved me was acting like the docs made the wrong call in LC's case. You know little about his case, he is fine now, and you still act like you know better than his docs what's best for him.

your reading comprehension is off. what do want to gain or destroy here? helping or hurting a cause? You are not hurting my cause and you have offered nothing but cut and paste.

[cmcrawfo]

....If you look at the abstract I posted a little while back,...

Honestly, that lit review was beyond my comprehension ( any geneticists in the house?).

what I do understand is that about 10-20% of IBD pt's have a first degree relative with UC/CD, and about 85% of CD pt's have no familial history of IBD.

[cmcrawfo]

My only outright dismissal is leukemia drugs. You don't read very well, do you?

What drugs are you talking about? I am no oncologist, but Mesalamine is not a leukemia drug. It may be a novel off label treatment, but its the first line approach to pt's with mild to moderate UC. If your Dr does not offer this to you, either your symptoms do not warrant it or he is not working to 'best practice' standards.

[flyandski365]

Honestly, that lit review was beyond my comprehension ( any geneticists in the house?).

what I do understand is that about 10-20% of IBD pt's have a first degree relative with UC/CD, and about 85% of CD pt's have no familial history of IBD.

So is the stuff that I've found suggesting family history is a big deal just outdated? Seems that way based on the above.

What I got out of that was that there are genes seem to predispose people to having IBD, and that certain types of foods can exacerbate the expression of the those genes. The rest was certainly over my head as well.

DasBlunt, I'm not trying to destroy anything here. I'd just like for you to acknowledge that your dietary zealotry isn't the only answer here.

[cmcrawfo]

So is the stuff that I've found suggesting family history is a big deal just outdated? Seems that way based on the above.

What I got out of that was that there are genes seem to predispose people to having IBD, and that certain types of foods can exacerbate the expression of the those genes. The rest was certainly over my head as well.

I think fam. hx is an important consideration, but I think its more useful as a tool in diagnosis than in treatment. I often think genetics and family history are synonyms ... they are not. It is easy (for me) to dismiss articles that look at things from a genetic level, because for most part there is a very limited ability to apply that info into clinical practice. At lest in my neck of the woods, genetic testing and novel gene therapies are basically science fiction. Genetics are most definitely the key to understanding this disease further, as from a purely clinical standpoint I think we have hit a wall.

[old goat]

Diverticulitis can cause the same symptoms. The causes of diverticulitis are vast. again, glad you are ok, but your example is unusual and for this discussion should be ignored.

I'm not going to get into an argument over western medicine vs alternative treatments--it's like arguing about religion, the two sides talk past each other. Nor will I comment on the causes and drug treatment of UC. My experience with the disease is limited to the surgical treatment of it. However some things you are saying are dangerous. LC had biopsy-proven UC, not diverticulitis. And the symptoms of diverticulitis and UC are quite different. The hallmark of UC is bloody diarrhea. The hallmark of diverticulitis is abdominal pain and tenderness, and bowel movements usually stop or are minimal. (Diverticulosis can cause significant bleeding from the rectum, but not associated with severe diarrhea, other than the blood.) The only time the two might be mistaken for one another is when a patient presents with septic symptoms and severe abdominal pain--toxic megacolon from ulcerative diverticulitis and uncontained ruptured diverticulitis can look similar. Both are surgical emergencies, although the amount of colon to be removed is different. The experience that LC described is not typical, but it is not rare either, and should not be ignored for the purposes of this discussion.
In addition to toxic megacolon, one should be aware that chronic ulcerative colitis does significantly increase the risk of cancer of the colon, and in some cases preventative surgery may be considered.
I am clearly on the side of western medicine--although western medicine's reluctance to admit ignorance and the inability to cure many diseases is what has led to DB's kind of thinking--leeches were once mainstream western medicine. One benefit of alternative medicine is that it is less likely to be harmful than orthodox treatment, but this is not true 100% of the time either. You don't want to know what podophyllin, which can be used as a Chinese herbal medicine, can do to you. But the main danger of alternative medicine is the risk of ignoring life or health threatening conditions until it is too late. For this reason I would urge anyone who chooses the exclusively alternative route to keep seeing their western doctor as well. There are docs who are tolerant enough to keep seeing patients who are receiving alternative treatment and are refusing western treatment--they can be hard to find and you may have to endure a lecture every visit.
The last thing anyone with a serious disease needs is someone telling them everything they and their doc are doing is wrong and that the disease is their fault through bad diet or maybe just bad thinking. Of course plenty of diseases are our fault--a lot of heart disease and lung cancer for example--but an awful lot of them are not and blaming the patient just adds insult to injury.
Finally--to the OP: there is no harm in exercising as much as your body will let you. It will not weaken your ability to fight the disease. Obviously if you are having diarrhea you will have to be sure to stay well-hydrated.

[DasBlunt]

Thanks ^^^ however, both diseases could have the same causes, while exhibiting different symptoms ( which you clearly defined to the best of science).

This also leads to the question as to if they are even different. Just because one has different symptoms to fight, does not mean they are different in cause. Purely speculative, just like the unknown periodic table in other galaxies.

[hortence]

What DasBlunt has described is very akin to ayurvedic medicine. In short Ayurvedic medicine is an approach to matching your particular body to the best available diet.

Ayurveda had historically taken the approach of enumerating bodily substances in the framework of the five classical elements (Sanskrit [maha]panchabhuta, viz. earth, water, fire, air and aether. According to Ayurveda, there are seven tissues dhatu. They are plasma (rasa), blood (rakta), muscles (maṃsa), fat (meda), bone (asthi), marrow (majja), and semen (shukra).[12]
Further information: Mahābhūta

Ayurveda states that a balance of three elemental substances Dosha is health and imbalance as disease. The dosha are three and they are Vata, Pitta and Kapha. One Ayurvedic theory states that each human possesses a unique combination of these doshas that define that person's temperament and characteristics. Each person has a natural state, or natural combination of these three elements, and should seek balance by modulating their behavior or environment. In this way they can increase or decrease the doshas they lack or in abundance of respectively. Another view, present in the ancient literature, states that dosha equality is identical to health, and that persons with imbalance of dosha are proportionately unhealthy, and that this is not their natural state. Prakriti is one of the important concept in Ayurveda.

From our friends at the wiki:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda

Stripped of all the sanskrit (annoying) is the notion that we are what we eat, and that what we eat drives our health.

So I would look into developing an ayurvedic diet and eliminating simple cause before taking more drastic surgery steps. It's not an either/or choice, but both approaches have their benefits and drawbacks.

[AKturnanburn]

Genetics obviously play a roll in our predisposition to disease, and to what degree is impossible to factualize. The dismissiveness of diet is blatantly blinded ignorance and conditioning by an industry that profits off of that misinformation. These diseases that are becoming so common and we are seeing in vastly greater numbers can be directly related to the spread of the western death diet throughout the world. I see it first hand regularly. In rural Africa (a place known for malnutrition) there was virtually no such thing as tooth decay and cavities, introduce processed grains and sugars, viola it's an epidemic. Obesity, disease, allergies, infection, all of them can be traced, in large part, to what goes in from birth. The initial genetics certainly play a roll, but the approach of the disease care system is compleatly misguided and unsustainable.

Also, I realize we are basically preaching our view and opinion of the optimum Tao, but I don't understand where the "smug" and combatively defensive discourse has efficacy.

[old goat]

Thanks ^^^ however, both diseases could have the same causes, while exhibiting different symptoms ( which you clearly defined to the best of science).

This also leads to the question as to if they are even different. Just because one has different symptoms to fight, does not mean they are different in cause. Purely speculative, just like the unknown periodic table in other galaxies.

The prevailing theory on diverticular disease is that diverticuli are caused by excessive pressure in the large intestine due to the lack of fiber in the western diet. It is certainly possible that UC has the same cause, or that some cases do. Beyond that however the pathophysiology is much different. Diverticulitis is caused by rupture of a diverticulum leading to bacterial infection of the tissue surrounding the bowel, or in more severe cases, peritonitis. UC is an autoimmune disease.
If I had UC and was not acutely ill I would gladly try a diet before I tried serious immune modulators.
I certainly don't dismiss the importance of dietary treatment. Many diseases--type II diabetes being the most obvious one--are treated with diet by orthodox western pysicians.
Where I have a problem is when an alternative treatment is advocated with no rational physiologic basis for its benefit and no clinical trial comparing the treatment to no treatment or to other treatments. (On the other hand it's better to have no trial than to have a trial funded by and censored by a drug company, who then pays doctors to go out and sell the treatment to other docs. Given the frequency of the latter it's hard for me to ask people to trust western medicine.)
Blaming all disease on what we eat ignores the fact that the great majority of what we eat is broken down into the same few basic nutrients, and that while it is true that our bodies are entirely composed of chemicals we have eaten or inhaled, what matters is primarily what our bodies do with and to those chemicals once they have entered our bodies. Again, while some diseases are directly due in whole or in part to what we eat (Japanese, based on their diet have much less heart disease and much more stomach cancer than Americans) many are not. When people blame all disease on one particular cause--be it diet or a misaligned spine or altered magnetic fields (as a friend of mine in med school who did not graduate believed) it reminds me of peoples who blame disease on evil spirits or angered gods.
And if what we eat and drink is so bad for us, why are there 7 goddamn billion of us?

[deeppo]

Well I guess lots of useful info. Im going to keep with the Perfect Health Diet. It is a big departure from my old diet which consisted of mostly grain, with veggies and lean meat. It does worry me that it promotes so much red meat. This is the general idea http://perfecthealthdiet.com/the-diet/ The drugs I am on are very mild compared to others . Hereditary? Maybe for me. There is no IBD in my family that I know of. It also is not a disease that many like to talk about. My dad had myasthenia gravis and my grandmother on his side had horrible rheumatoid arthritis which are both auto immune diseases. I will probably start taking my Chinese herbs again when I get back from a short trip I have planned. Anyone have good suggestions for probiotics or how many billions I should be taking. It is all very confusing. When your GI doc tell you that diet has nothing to do with it but many if not most people who have ibd say the exact opposite. It is also hard to trust the drug companies because obviously profit is there main motive. Going to be starting some meditation and maybe yoga to reduce stress. Also symptoms seem to be gone when skiing powder, so that will have to be my priority this winter

[DasBlunt]

Well I guess lots of useful info. Im going to keep with the Perfect Health Diet. It is a big departure from my old diet which consisted of mostly grain, with veggies and lean meat. It does worry me that it promotes so much red meat. This is the general idea http://perfecthealthdiet.com/the-diet/ The drugs I am on are very mild compared to others . Hereditary? Maybe for me. There is no IBD in my family that I know of. It also is not a disease that many like to talk about. My dad had myasthenia gravis and my grandmother on his side had horrible rheumatoid arthritis which are both auto immune diseases. I will probably start taking my Chinese herbs again when I get back from a short trip I have planned. Anyone have good suggestions for probiotics or how many billions I should be taking. It is all very confusing. When your GI doc tell you that diet has nothing to do with it but many if not most people who have ibd say the exact opposite. It is also hard to trust the drug companies because obviously profit is there main motive. Going to be starting some meditation and maybe yoga to reduce stress. Also symptoms seem to be gone when skiing powder, so that will have to be my priority this winter

Any adding of bacteria is tricky as many things are built into the food/environment we live in (cultured anything). Too much of a good thing kind of stuff is what to protect against and mutations of bacteria from the lab created stuff. How our digestion works is personal= different for everyone. Bowel putrefaction is part of digestion. One of the ways to know if you are on the right track( get it, "track") is your instinct. Certain "cravings" are good, of course we know the bad cravings.

I think wide swaths of the population, in general, exhibit many forms of "auto-immune" diseases so as to control those very populations, many ways to live, many ways in which we die.

On a different tangent, ( not you OP) People thinking they are entitled to eat what and how much "they" want is a form of, I guess, "pick your poison", but please stop burdening the population with your health care costs.

[Tippster]

I am still confounded by this disease, mine came sudden and severe. I was left with two options; go on a regular infusion of a biologic drug or lose the colon. I decided to keep the colon. Treatment options seem to vary wildly depending on the severity, talk to your doctor and see what options are best for you. I got pretty tired of hearing everyone's special diet that I should follow, there was simply no option for me other than a drug which blocks specific receptors to the immune system. I'm almost two years to the day since my diagnosis and remain symptom free after going on drug treatment. I'm not a proponent for drugs, I suffered frustrating side affects from anti-inflammatories although I'm now only on the biologic drug.

I've managed to increase my strength and fitness from before I became ill with UC and have zero effects from the drug or illness.

Find a gastroenterologist, start a discussion.

And to think, all you had to do was cut out Gluten.

[DasBlunt]

The prevailing theory on diverticular disease is that diverticuli are caused by excessive pressure in the large intestine due to the lack of fiber in the western diet. It is certainly possible that UC has the same cause, or that some cases do. Beyond that however the pathophysiology is much different. Diverticulitis is caused by rupture of a diverticulum leading to bacterial infection of the tissue surrounding the bowel, or in more severe cases, peritonitis. UC is an autoimmune disease.
If I had UC and was not acutely ill I would gladly try a diet before I tried serious immune modulators.
I certainly don't dismiss the importance of dietary treatment. Many diseases--type II diabetes being the most obvious one--are treated with diet by orthodox western pysicians.
Where I have a problem is when an alternative treatment is advocated with no rational physiologic basis for its benefit and no clinical trial comparing the treatment to no treatment or to other treatments. (On the other hand it's better to have no trial than to have a trial funded by and censored by a drug company, who then pays doctors to go out and sell the treatment to other docs. Given the frequency of the latter it's hard for me to ask people to trust western medicine.)
Blaming all disease on what we eat ignores the fact that the great majority of what we eat is broken down into the same few basic nutrients, and that while it is true that our bodies are entirely composed of chemicals we have eaten or inhaled, what matters is primarily what our bodies do with and to those chemicals once they have entered our bodies. Again, while some diseases are directly due in whole or in part to what we eat (Japanese, based on their diet have much less heart disease and much more stomach cancer than Americans) many are not. When people blame all disease on one particular cause--be it diet or a misaligned spine or altered magnetic fields (as a friend of mine in med school who did not graduate believed) it reminds me of peoples who blame disease on evil spirits or angered gods.
And if what we eat and drink is so bad for us, why are there 7 goddamn billion of us?

One of the problems with the perspective exhibited in the first few sentences of this post is the medical profession's greed blinding them and their resulting confusion and failure to understand cause and the naming of symptoms as disease, which is completely the wrong approach. Sometimes the Hippocratic Oath is hypocritical for only one benefit, money. Rounding out this post is mention of magnetics and evil spirits. A scary mentality of ridicule and anger based on debt and greed. These people really have no ethics and will always resort to insults to "pound home" their point. If you take this personally, you're too far brainwashed to understand the death spiral which you subject your community to.

The "excessive pressure" and pockets are not a cause, it is the result and a "symptom" that leads to racial surgery. The cause is systematic abuse/disease of the colon/system by any number of combinations of poor choice, or bad combinations, millions of variations depending on the subject.
Our system takes in only air, water, sunlight and food. Clearly you notice I used sunlight, which is to challenge the notion of what is proven in the "lab" is not necessarily the reality of the physical world.

All Supplements/probiotics have been taken as far as big pharma with the refinement and potency so need to be approached with the same perspective as food, moderation and timing of digestion.

And to think, all you had to do was cut out Gluten.

Yeah, Gluten allergy or whatever they call it is a scam. It is connected directly to this discussion.

[old goat]

One of the problems with the perspective exhibited in the first few sentences of this post is the medical profession's greed blinding them and their resulting confusion and failure to understand cause and the naming of symptoms as disease, which is completely the wrong approach. Sometimes the Hippocratic Oath is hypocritical for only one benefit, money. Rounding out this post is mention of magnetics and evil spirits. A scary mentality of ridicule and anger based on debt and greed. These people really have no ethics and will always resort to insults to "pound home" their point. If you take this personally, you're too far brainwashed to understand the death spiral which you subject your community to.

The "excessive pressure" and pockets are not a cause, it is the result and a "symptom" that leads to racial surgery. The cause is systematic abuse/disease of the colon/system by any number of combinations of poor choice, or bad combinations, millions of variations depending on the subject.
Our system takes in only air, water, sunlight and food. Clearly you notice I used sunlight, which is to challenge the notion of what is proven in the "lab" is not necessarily the reality of the physical world.

All Supplements/probiotics have been taken as far as big pharma with the refinement and potency so need to be approached with the same perspective as food, moderation and timing of digestion.

It is certainly important to differentiate between symptoms and disease. Symptoms are one of the ways, besides examination of the patient and tests, we try to diagnose a disease, so that proper treatment can be carried out. To treat effectively one has to accurately diagnose the disease and not just treat the symptoms. But it's also important to remember that a patient wants the symptoms gone. Someone with UC doesn't care what their biopsies look like; they want the bleeding and the diarrhea to stop, and a physicians ultimate goal in treating the sick should be to relieve the symptoms--by treating the disease when possible, by treating the symptoms when not (example being treating incurable cancer with pain medication.)
If you want to split semantic hairs--lack of dietary fiber causes weak bulges in the wall of the colon which may perforate which causes bacterial infection of the surrounding tissue which is diverticulitis. Or I could start with diverticulitis and work my way back to lack of fiber, substituting "result of" for "causes". Not sure what difference it makes.
I am only too aware of the greed of much of the medical profession, which is made worse by the need for most docs to pay back a few hundred thousand in loans.. Personally I am retired; before that I worked for a salary. (A famous surgeon, John Madden--not the football guy--said that you don't have to pay a surgeon to operate. He will operate out of shear blood lust, although I never felt a whole lot of blood lust when I had to get out of bed at three in the morning to take out part of someone's colon.)
My point about magnetism and evil spirits is that when we are ignorant it is tempting to try to find a single cause for everything bad but unfortunately nature is far more complicated than that. I stand by the comparison, except to say that in the case of diet there is obviously validity for some conditions. I agree that supplements and probiotics should be used with moderation; so should theories.
As far as ridicule and anger go I'll let the others reading this be the judge.
I'm glad you mentioned sunlight.