Narrow last (92-95mm) race boot info needed: Lange RS, Raptor B3, X-lab . . .

[deft_funk]

Hey all, got a few boot questions for those with experience in race boots. Shops don't stock 92-95 last boots, so try-on is not an option otherwise I wouldn't be asking for bootfitting advice on the internet.

I have had trouble with all freeride alpine boots I have owned feeling too big around my ankle/lower calf. Even with the addition of tons of foam wraps, padding, fully custom footbed, intuitions, ect, my ankle is rolling around inside the boot and causing tendonitis issues primarily on the outside of my calf. After two seasons of being laid out for several weeks over the course of the year with foot/leg pain I went down to see Brent at Park City Boot (recommended by a friend who struggled with fit issues for a while as well) who confirmed that going to a race boot is my only hope.

My second issue is fairly prominent bone spurs on the back of my heel that leverage into the back of boots with smaller heel pockets. Feels particularly bad in the Salomon X-Max and Ghost even after a huge foam ankle wrap and grinding out the shell, better but not ideal in the Lange RX, no issues in a Cochise 130 but the ankle in that boot was so loose I only skied it a couple of days so it may be that I'd encounter the same thing after it packs out.

The 3 boots I've been looking at due to recommendations and based on companies that have fit me in a wider boot are Head Raptor B3's (95mm last), Solly X-lab soft (95 last), and Lange RS RP ZA (92 last). All 130 flex.

So my specific questions are:
Is the Lange in a 92 going to be way more narrow than the others?
Which boot has the tightest (most narrow) fit around the ankle/low calf?
Which boot has the most prominent heel pocket (bigger cup at the back = more space for bone spurs)?

I have heard the Raptors may have the best heel pocket space, that Raptors and Sollys are roughly the same volume in the lower cuff/ankle area (although I believe previously Lange was offering a 95 last, now it's just the 92, so don't know how that might change things). Not much confirmation on any of this info, and I'll probably need to do a little bit of punching/grinding regardless of what I get but it would be great to hear from someone who has skied some or all of these boots to compare. FWIW I've been skiing 27 Ghosts and Quest 130's (same lowers as an X-Max), which seem to have the best hold around my ankle, but are still too loose and really bother my bone spurs even with grinding. A 26 RX lv was even better hold but too short even with a bunch of boot work on the toes, didn't seem to bother my spurs quite as much but I didn't ski it more than maybe 15 days due to the length. Cochise 130 (as mentioned above) seemed like it had a much deeper heel pocket but in other respects was way too sloppy. Haven't been able to try anything from Head.

Thanks for any info. Willing to put a lot of effort into getting this figured out after the time it's taken out of my skiing in years past.

[marshalolson]

First of all the only way to figure this out is to try them on, preferably with an old packed out liner. consider buying all and returning those that don't work? They are going to fit completely different from the boots you mentioned.

Second of all, you owe it to yourself to try on the tecnica inferno boots. Even the 98mm version is like 1/2" narrower at the ankle than a 97mm Lange rs, and a far closer medial wall. about the same as 95mm heads - just a normal toebox.

[stevesmith7]

I was skiing the Raptor RS and was having heal fit issues until I went to Intuition Power Tongue liners. Problem solved.

[deft_funk]

Marshall- thanks for the heads up on the Tecnica, I'm open to any suggestions although the Inferno is no longer being produced. Looks like the race "R" series (98 or 93 last) is the only current option from them. I did find an old Inferno online and could be willing to give it a shot although pretty doubtful considering how much space I've had in every other 97/98 last I have ever tried. Forgot to mention Dalbello Scorpions felt like maybe the closest ankle fit of any boot I have tried but still too roomy.

I also totally disagree that smaller last race boots will fit completely different from their freeride siblings. Lange RS/RX/XT boots share the same lower mold, and the shape of the boot is basically the same across last widths. Same with the Salomon X series (X Lab, X Max, X Pro, which is a similar fit in my experience to the Ghosts). Same with Head (Raptor series comes in freeride as well as race boots of various lasts).

Steve- what sort of heel fit issues did you have? Too narrow? Heel jamming the back of the boot when you flexed? I'd be in the 95 last version but was more concerned about the depth of the heel pocket going back.

I have so far been unable to find the Lange or Salomon in stock in my size anywhere online and local shops are not psyched to special order several race boots just so I can try them on. Other brands yes are options to order and try, but it would be great to narrow down to at least a few models so I don't spend $200 just on shipping to buy and return 8 pairs of boots. I also plan on buying locally if at all possible and feel a little bad putting 4 or 5k worth of boots from a small race shop on my credit card with no intention of actually paying for anything. Sollys and Head were recommended by Brent as among the narrower fits around the ankle/leg, and I have liked the Lange fit in the past plus the new 92mm last made them intriguing which is why those were the 3 I had sort of narrowed it down to.

[marshalolson]

Marshall- thanks for the heads up on the Tecnica, I'm open to any suggestions although the Inferno is no longer being produced. Looks like the race "R" series (98 or 93 last) is the only current option from them. I did find an old Inferno online and could be willing to give it a shot although pretty doubtful considering how much space I've had in every other 97/98 last I have ever tried. Forgot to mention Dalbello Scorpions felt like maybe the closest ankle fit of any boot I have tried but still too roomy.

yo man, the tecnica R93 and r95 certainly are out there, but the inferno 98 for sure still exists this season (edit- its called the r9.8 now). but never mind that, as the scorpion is pretty similar in terms of volume.


just to try and throw out a few more options:

the rossi 92mm is (now) the same as the lange.

the atomic redster is quite narrow in the ankle as well, but relatively long at the throat.

the nordica dobermann wc is a rad boot too. it shares a mold with the 93mm tecnica.

the pre-vaccum fisher rc4 wc's were also way way low volume.

for what its worth, the lange 92, fisher rc4 wc, dobie, r9.3 are all much lower volume than the head 95mm.



edit- a little extrapolating:
the lange 92s and old fisher rc4 wc's are probably the lowest volume boots i have ever tried on. i could not even buckle the langes with the thinest liner i own, and literally could not get the fischers on at room temp with the same liner.

the lange rs/rx and salomon x-max 97/98mm boots are likely the highest volume ankles on the market for their claimed last-width. my old cochise boot shells were ~2mm narrower across the ankle than my old RX boots.

i currently own raptor 95's and skied for years in the salomon. i feel they are both a notch bigger in volume than the lange, fischer, dobie. a notch smaller around the foot than the r9.8/inferno, 98mm dobermann, scorpion, but about the same size/volume in the cuff (edit- just tried both on, and the r9.8/inferno is lower volume in the cuff than the raptor95)

the r9.5 is lower volume in the cuff and ankle than the head by a notable amount, but probably not that different in the foot. tough to say with time separating it all.

hopefully someone more knowledgeable can weigh-in. start haus in truckee (flexon phil, sierra jim) might be a good resource to call into and ask as well, or pm. they will stock most/all of the boots you are interested in.

good luck though - tough spot to be in!

[stevesmith7]

Poor hold down, heel lifting out of the heel pocket when aggressively flexing.
I had been in Langes before the Heads and never had any heel issues, the new liners fixed it.

[Gaperious Basterd]

the atomic redster is quite narrow in the ankle as well, but relatively long at the throat.

Yes, but the carbon-fiber matrix in the heel area isn't as amenable to heat-stretching (if at all) compared to plastic, and most bootfitter won't do this for fear of cracking the boots. There is ZERO room to grind in that part of the boot.

...

OP: Get a 95 mm lasted Fischer RC4 130 WC Vacuum. It will solve ALL of your problems.

That is my best advice.

[wasatchback]

A little Tecnica specific beta

Tecnica R 9.8 is the 98mm Inferno mold from the last few years. It's definitely lower volume all around compared to the Lange 97 and Salomon 98. There is a 95mm R9.5 however this year it only comes in a 90 and 110 flex. Last few years it did come in a 130 and 150 flex and was known as the Inferno R.

R9.3 is a new this year. It is the original Doberman plug mold with a thicker sole and a different cuff. Nordica's 93mm boot is the same but different graphics.

I'm about to start carving out a 9.3 to fit my foot for this season. I always used to ski in plug boots and I'm psyched to get back in them.

[turnfarmer]

Peroneal longus and brevis pain are easily caused by a forefoot varus post on a custom insert.
The opposite(forefoot valgus post,reverse mortons extension, 1st ray drop) can often relieve peroneal pain in a cavus foot. Did Brent look at your inserts? Not saying you don't need new boots, but you should definitely have your inserts checked. What boot did Brent recommend, I'd trust his opinion, he's seen your feet and knows his stuff. Good luck, as flexible cavus AA width foot myself, I feel your pain.

[auvgeek]

^^I'm a little embarrassed, but I can't understand hardly any of what you said. I'm excited to learn! Could you try to 'splain again?

I switched from a Full Tilt to a Scorpion 130 late last season because of pain in my peroneous longus. I had heard the placement of the upper buckle on FTs can cause this sort of issue, so I was hoping the Scorpion would alleviate that, as well as add some stiffness. I *love* the way the Scorpion skis, but the pain in my peroneous longus seemed to get considerably worse! The last inbounds day of the season for me I only made it two runs before I could barely walk. I'm in 4 yo custom (unweighted) footbeds, but they haven't seen *that* many skiing days. (Less than 150 for sure, since I was injured for some of those seasons). Jim Mates in Seattle is my fitter, but I wasn't very impressed with his ideas to solve the issue: canting, eliminating volume on the medial side of the calf, blowing out the lateral side of the boot, etc. I'm pretty sure the issue goes beyond canting because of how quickly and intensely the pain arose the last day I skied them. Is this at all reasonable, or am I just being obstinate? I was skiing pretty regularly at the time (stretches of 10-12 days in a row followed by a few days in the office), but that shouldn't bring on the kind of pain I was feeling...

I'm in school on the east coast now so I don't have a lot of time to get the fit dialed with him—when I'm home I'd love to just ski when I have the chance! So I'm hoping maybe your answer will help me be a little better prepared next time I see him.

Thanks!

OP: I'm thinking about picking up a pair of these from evo: http://www.evo.com/outlet/alpine-ski...boots-2011.jpg

^^Edit: Looks like they've sold out of most sizes. Dang!

[deft_funk]

for what its worth, the lange 92, fisher rc4 wc, dobie, r9.3 are all much lower volume than the head 95mm.

the lange rs/rx and salomon x-max 97/98mm boots are likely the highest volume ankles on the market for their claimed last-width. my old cochise boot shells were ~2mm narrower across the ankle than my old RX boots.

i currently own raptor 95's and skied for years in the salomon. i feel they are both a notch bigger in volume than the lange, fischer, dobie. a notch smaller around the foot than the r9.8/inferno, 98mm dobermann, scorpion, but about the same size/volume in the cuff (edit- just tried both on, and the r9.8/inferno is lower volume in the cuff than the raptor95)

hopefully someone more knowledgeable can weigh-in. start haus in truckee (flexon phil, sierra jim) might be a good resource to call into and ask as well, or pm. they will stock most/all of the boots you are interested in.

good luck though - tough spot to be in!

Thanks Marshall, this is super helpful and exactly the kind of info I was looking for. Seems like the Head is out. I think maybe the lange/solly has a lower instep than the cochise 130, even if that boot is narrower? Like I said, I skied it a couple of times and it felt way too sloppy (heel lift). Hadn't really thought too much about Dobermann/Infernos because the Patron pro seemed to have the same issue of a slightly larger instep, although after some more research it seems like that was a change from the newer Dobermann mold.

Yes, but the carbon-fiber matrix in the heel area isn't as amenable to heat-stretching (if at all) compared to plastic, and most bootfitter won't do this for fear of cracking the boots. There is ZERO room to grind in that part of the boot.

...

OP: Get a 95 mm lasted Fischer RC4 130 WC Vacuum. It will solve ALL of your problems.

That is my best advice.

Good to know on the Redster, will probably give that a pass. Intrigued by the Vacuum but I know at least one person with really tricky feet who said it was good but not wholly what it was cracked up to be. Similar input from Brent in PC.

Peroneal longus and brevis pain are easily caused by a forefoot varus post on a custom insert.
The opposite(forefoot valgus post,reverse mortons extension, 1st ray drop) can often relieve peroneal pain in a cavus foot. Did Brent look at your inserts? Not saying you don't need new boots, but you should definitely have your inserts checked. What boot did Brent recommend, I'd trust his opinion, he's seen your feet and knows his stuff. Good luck, as flexible cavus AA width foot myself, I feel your pain.

Yeah, he looked at my inserts. I'm with auvgeek here a bit as I don't follow the technical jargon super well but I've had the same issues with posted, non-posted, full custom, arch molds, no inserts... Brent basically said I was fucked and needed a race boot with maybe a foam liner too. Not taking that as gospel but I have spent a lot of time messing with my boots and everything he said confirmed what I had suspected/experienced. He didn't have a specific boot in mind but said a 95 or lower last, just kind of threw out Solly and Head as options, didn't recommend a boot in particular although he did say specifically that he didn't think a vacuum would be an easy fix. Not sure how much fitting he does with these race shells to compare fit between them.

OP: I'm thinking about picking up a pair of these from evo: http://www.evo.com/outlet/alpine-ski...boots-2011.jpg

Sweet! They do have 27s, just ordered a pair up to see how they feel. Obviously not going to hold onto them if it's a no-go, but a great heads up on what seems like a potentially good option for a steal. If they still feel big it seems like the Lange, Fisher, or R9.3 would be my options and I can look into those three a little more specifically.

Appreciate all the help, there's a lot of talk about blowing out boots and "great" new comfy models coming out with more room but us dudes with skinny-ass feet have boot problems too...

[turnfarmer]

Sorry pedorthist foot geek speak. OP missed Brent's recommends in your second post.
Cavus foot= high arched can be flexible= pronated often severely, or rigid= supinated

Forefoot varus post= build up under the footbed that extends past mid arch, possibly below the 1st met head, in which case it should be called a forefoot varus extension or morton's extension. This is done to prevent pronation in a foot with an elevated 1st met head. Should only be used if the elevated met head is a bony vs soft tissue problem.
IMO way overused.

Forefoot valgus post= build up past mid arch on the outside of the foot, ends at met heads.

Reverse morton's extension= same as forefoot valgus post but extends past the mets

1st ray drop= full foot addition to bottom of insert(usually need at least 1/8" to be effective) with the 1st met head thru big toe area ground away to zero. IMO the most effective of the three.

Back to your issues- has anyone checked your ankle dorsiflexion? If it's limited or nonexistent, it would contribute immensely to your heel and peroneal problems.
If limited stretching or massage can help. If nonexistent find a pt or chiropractor to mobilize your ankle.

As far as ski boots for limited ankle dorsiflexion they should be as upright as possible, stiff, and usually need a big heel lift.
Hope the above is comprehensible and helps you out.

[auvgeek]

Very helpful. Thanks, mang!

I spent some time (very tired in the middle of midterms) trying to find those definitions on a podiatry forum, but nothing was as clear as what you wrote. Thanks for boiling it down to essentials. I'm pretty sure I have fine dorsiflection, but I should get it checked by my PT.

OP: Glad you got some! I'm kicking myself for not jumping on the 26s. Anyone know the bsl of the 26 and/or 27 dobie WC? [A quick google search yielded nada.] I've a <5 mm shell fit in the 26 Scorpions. /thread hijack

Edit: My Scorpions were modded w. a hydraulic press to more upright so I don't think forward lean is the issue. I'll play around with heel lift. Thanks again!

[Christopher3000]

^^I'm a little embarrassed, but I can't understand hardly any of what you said. I'm excited to learn! Could you try to 'splain again?

I switched from a Full Tilt to a Scorpion 130 late last season because of pain in my peroneous longus. I had heard the placement of the upper buckle on FTs can cause this sort of issue, so I was hoping the Scorpion would alleviate that, as well as add some stiffness. I *love* the way the Scorpion skis, but the pain in my peroneous longus seemed to get considerably worse! The last inbounds day of the season for me I only made it two runs before I could barely walk. I'm in 4 yo custom (unweighted) footbeds, but they haven't seen *that* many skiing days. (Less than 150 for sure, since I was injured for some of those seasons). Jim Mates in Seattle is my fitter, but I wasn't very impressed with his ideas to solve the issue: canting, eliminating volume on the medial side of the calf, blowing out the lateral side of the boot, etc. I'm pretty sure the issue goes beyond canting because of how quickly and intensely the pain arose the last day I skied them. Is this at all reasonable, or am I just being obstinate? I was skiing pretty regularly at the time (stretches of 10-12 days in a row followed by a few days in the office), but that shouldn't bring on the kind of pain I was feeling...

I'm in school on the east coast now so I don't have a lot of time to get the fit dialed with him—when I'm home I'd love to just ski when I have the chance! So I'm hoping maybe your answer will help me be a little better prepared next time I see him.

Thanks!

OP: I'm thinking about picking up a pair of these from evo: http://www.evo.com/outlet/alpine-ski...boots-2011.jpg

^^Edit: Looks like they've sold out of most sizes. Dang!

I tried to ski in the 98mm version of those dobies for a couple seasons and I cannot recommend the EDT for free skiing. The power transmission is very direct, which is great sometimes and very jarring others. The real issue is that they're extremely cold; whatever is inside that bootboard seems to retain cold; it was the first time I've felt like parts of my feet beside my toes were cold.

[gregL]

Anyone know the bsl of the 26 and/or 27 dobie WC?

I thought the Doberman WC was sized in British units? If so, I think the mondo numbers are approximates, and the 27 should be the "8-8.5" @ 315mm. The smaller shell size "7-7.5" is 305mm.

[marshalolson]

I tried to ski in the 98mm version of those dobies for a couple seasons and I cannot recommend the EDT for free skiing. The power transmission is very direct, which is great sometimes and very jarring others. The real issue is that they're extremely cold; whatever is inside that bootboard seems to retain cold; it was the first time I've felt like parts of my feet beside my toes were cold.

EDT aluminum shank = wicked cold, wicked heavy, wicked stiff.

but if the boot fits, the non EDT dobermann's of similar last can be had online too. worth trying on the EDT, but no way i would freeski in them.




can anyone comment on the redster actually having carbon in it? from where i am sitting, that boot looks like black plastic with texture molded into it? or is a polymer mixed in with the plastic, and the graphic is something different?

[auvgeek]

I thought the Doberman WC was sized in British units? If so, I think the mondo numbers are approximates, and the 27 should be the "8-8.5" @ 315mm. The smaller shell size "7-7.5" is 305mm.

Think you're right, but they're listed on the Evo website by mondo size. Thanks for the info; I prolly need the 26.

Marshal and Chris: Thanks for the heads up on that. Never raced, so it's good to know these things.

[marshalolson]

FWIW, even though they were stamped 315mm, my 27 (super old) dobermans measured an actual 310mm on the boot sole.

[gregL]

Think you're right, but they're listed on the Evo website by mondo size.

Could be the SKU creation tool they use only offers Mondo

[Gaperious Basterd]

It is genuine carbon fiber, with a thin layer of soft plastic melted to the interior.

That junk is great for what it does, but I know for a fact five certified bootfitter refused to attempt a heat/"-stretch there.

Atomic also never replied to my email about how to stretch it there.


OP:yeah the vacuum isn't quite perfect. The success resides in the foot prep, stance/knee-cradle adjustment, and the molding.

Due to the refrigerated cold pack that physically touches the boot during molding, it doesn't quite give the surgical precision one would expect.

BUT, it is way better than a pre-cast plug that is designed for the boot R&D director's foot shape.

[mntlion]

red boots. end of story...


my $.02 race boots fit almost no one, but with some work the boot is made so that almost anyone can fit into the and ski them, just takes some time and work and BOTH the store and the customer need to be OK with this.. If your store doesn't carry anything, and you have to order then ordering in 3 is a great option, but odds are any one of them will work OK


check dorsal flexion, if you can't get your knee past your big toes, with feet flat and forward, you need to get that working first.

[deft_funk]

Lots more good info. First of all dorsal flexion is a non issue, I have tons of mobility in my ankles.

Good to know about the terrible experience freeskiing in the EDT dobermanns. Will check the fit but there's no current or retired non-EDT boot below a 98 last as far as I can tell... so that seems like it may be out unfortunately. I assume the Tecnicas would have the aluminum shank as well because it's the same mold even though it doesn't specify? Like auvgeek I don't have a racing background and just assumed complaints about cold race boots had to do with fit and thin liners, not necessarily construction of the shell. But "wicked cold, stiff, and heavy" sounds like no fun at all.

I'm intrigued by the Fischer RC4 WC 95 last, at least previous versions were super narrow in the cuff and due to the ease of getting fit dialed with the vacuum process. Didn't realize there was a 95 last vacuum before looking into it, I had kind of written them off before checking that.

Mntlion, you talking about the Redster? What about it in particular? That is a boot I could easily find online to order and try on...

So where I'm at now, seems like the Tecnica and Nordica only now come in a 93 last that is probably heavy as shit and cold as shit and narrow as shit because it's got metal in it. I think if I need to go for a <95 last boot easy choice would be the Lange then because there's no metal shank- can anyone confirm this? I'd probably have to do a ton of work to all those anyways so it wouldn't really matter which one I got, like mntlion said. Not seeing any inferno 27's in the previous year's 95 last online and they would still I think have the metal issue I think. Per Marshall and Steve the Heads seem to have the most space of any 95 last around the ankle => also out. That leaves promising options as the Redster 95 last, recommended (?) by mntlion although the back may be tough to work on, and the Fisher RC4 95 last vacuum which seems like a potentially really attractive option. Obviously the difficulty here is that I have to buy the boot before I feel what the vacuum can do.

Going to wait and see how the Dobermanns fit before proceeding- I've never tried on a 95 last race boot so that will be my jump off point I think although I am pretty bummed as it appears that a 95 last non-metal version does not exist- unless someone can point me in the direction of one. Will probably order a Redster as well as they are easily available to try on. No Fisher RC4 95 lasts online so that'd be a special order from a local shop and probably would just go ahead and buy/vacuum fit them if I get to the point of ordering them. Probably worth it to mold the RC4's before pulling the trigger on a 92 Lange as that would be a guaranteed pain in the ass to punch and grind.... Will update when I get my hands on some boots.

[wasatchback]

The new 9.3 Tecnica is based off the old original Doberman mold. Not the one with EDT in it. The one that came out a LONG time ago, 13 years ago I think. Before progressor and before EDT. There is no metal in it whatsoever.

[Snowy Spartan]

I think you can pull the metal out of a 93 last Tecnica boot prior to this years version. The reason they switched to black is because it flexes truer and doesn't need the metal to add torsional stiffness

[Gaperious Basterd]

race boots fit almost no one, but with some work the boot is made so that almost anyone can fit into the and ski them, just takes some time and work and BOTH the store and the customer need to be OK with this..

QFT. Yeah, I've always felt this way, and think that sometimes the store isn't OK with excessive re-visits.

I think you can pull the metal out of a 93 last Tecnica boot prior to this years version. The reason they switched to black is because it flexes truer and doesn't need the metal to add torsional stiffness

Does the orange colorant soften the plastic?