Unofficial 2013 Avi Air Bag Pack thread

[skiingsamurai]

Im back bitches!!
After a long hiatus from the boards Im back.
To celebrate this momentous occasion I think I'll move to Jackson for the winter.

Despite being a 26yo engineer, my parents have decided that I MUST HAVE an airbag pack now. They are throwing in some cash for a balloon pack.
I will use this for day tours, trips up the pass, lapping the village slackcountry and other typical Jackson activities.
Ive been searching around for reviews of the newer packs, and they seem to be all over the place. I want to shove the typical stuff in this thing, skins, shovel, probe, layer or 2, bivvy, food, water ect. I dont have any plans for overnight+ trips. I like diagonal ski carry, room for a helmet inside would be awesome, but I can deal with either having one outside or just wearing a beanie (less desirable than protection).

Ive got my eye on the BCA float 32 due to its good reviews on BC, im not stoked the canister is another $175 on top... Here's your new car, by the way, the keys cost extra...

Any thoughts?

[pfluffenmeister]

Check out the Mystery Ranch BlackJack.
Pricey, but it's supposed to be tits.
Even though heavier than its's competitors, it is supposed to quite a bit more comfortable (and the 42l size compresses well).

[werdswerf]

I have a Blackjack and it's great. That said, I will sell it and pick up a battery operated model as soon as one is proven reliable. I've read that Arc'teryx and Black Diamond both have one in the works ... hopefully they'll show something at OR this year.

[neck beard]

I have a Blackjack and it's great. That said, I will sell it and pick up a battery operated model as soon as one is proven reliable. I've read that Arc'teryx and Black Diamond both have one in the works ... hopefully they'll show something at OR this year.

Arcteryx have a patent on their design. Good to hear that BD are aiming at competing in that technology. If it works well, battery beats gas tank.

[nobueno]

I got the float 32 last year on bc.com on a price error. Ended up with the whole shebang for a little over $400. Well worth it at this price but if you're approaching the cost of a mystery ranch I'd go that route. Bag carries alright but its a little short for me. I'm 6'2'' with an average torso. Ski carry leaves a lot to be desired. Hip strap is tough to get tight and stay tight but has a nice bomber metal clip so no concern of snapping a little plastic clip. Separation of pockets and organization is good. Easy to remove the airbag and use.it without if you want to. Happy with it for the price I got it at but I wouldn't pay $725 for it.

[Alkasquawlik]

Personally, I'd stay away from mechanical release systems and go for the much more reliable pneumatic trigger system. There've been a few quiet but public problems with a few manufacturers balloon bags in the past couple of years and most of them have been related to some sort of mechanical seizing in the triggering system. Pneumatic systems have proven to be far more reliable. Just my 2¢

Example of mechanical seizing: http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/s...d.php?t=252230

[1000-oaks]

Battery-powered spooks me, I'd definitely go compressed gas.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Personally, I'd stay away from mechanical release systems and go for the much more reliable pneumatic trigger system. There've been a few quiet but public problems with a few manufacturers balloon bags in the past couple of years and most of them have been related to some sort of mechanical seizing in the triggering system. Pneumatic systems have proven to be far more reliable. Just my 2¢

Example of mechanical seizing: http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/s...d.php?t=252230

Which packs have this pneumatic trigger?

[1000-oaks]

^ BCA redesigned their trigger mechanism for easier activation to rectify the problem mentioned in that snowmobiler thread.

I pulled my Wary/Blackjack once just to try it, and the firm tug seemed perfect. Enough to probably withstand the handle being pulled through tiny tree branches (an initial light pull didn't trigger it), but not too much for a kid or small person. The basic release design is similar to BCA, but the mechanism is completely different.

Snowpulse & ABS are probably the pneumatic triggers Alki was thinking of. They have a small explosive charge in the handle (probably something like a blank round for a starting pistol or concrete anchor) that sends a jet of compressed gas through the hose, which I assume drives a pin that punctures the seal on the nitrogen bottle.

[skiingsamurai]

Mother of God the BlackJack is spendy.

Im surprised they dont use the 12gr CO2 canisters from tire inflators or paintball pistols. The BCA system looks large and inefficient considering how simple this thing really is.

Any other reviews or thoughts? Im going to try to find a BCA 32 to try on soon.

[shafty85]

Snowpulse. No question. Only bag that wraps around and protects your noggin.

[PNWbrit]

Look at the Wary. Very happy with mine. They were very helpful about offering free shipping and return if necessary since there wasn't s local dealer I could check it out at.

[mfa81]

Snowpulse. No question. Only bag that wraps around and protects your noggin.

does it still have their own bag or are they all mammut now?

anyway, mammut have tons of options this year, a few with the wrap around balloon! but have no idea how they fit though

[skiingsamurai]

Look at the Wary. Very happy with mine. They were very helpful about offering free shipping and return if necessary since there wasn't s local dealer I could check it out at.

what size do you have? The 23L looks awesome, but tiny. Enough room for a days worth of crap?

[PNWbrit]

what size do you have? The 23L looks awesome, but tiny. Enough room for a days worth of crap?

Have the 23L. It seems bigger than that and is plenty for day tour but i dont tend to take a bunch of crap. Not too big to use everyday powder lift/sidecountry days. The 33 doesn't weigh much more though and has pretty good cinching.

Talk to them if you can't find locally. Bet you can get the shipping deal I did to try them out.

[werdswerf]

Battery-powered spooks me, I'd definitely go compressed gas.

The problem with compressed gas is that it's a huge pain to re-arm the bag and, therefore, to test it out. I triggered the Blackjack once in my living room just to get a feel for what it's like and to make sure everything worked. It took me five phone calls, a 30 minute drive to the nearest dive shop, and $5 just to refill the canister. Factor in the time spent actually disassembling and re-assembling the activator (which involves replacing and lubricating a tiny O-ring, among many other steps), and I never want to test it out again.

If battery-operated airbags allow you to re-arm the system without having to leave you apartment, that by itself is a huge advantage over compressed air.

[1000-oaks]

Mother of God the BlackJack is spendy.

Im surprised they dont use the 12gr CO2 canisters from tire inflators or paintball pistols. The BCA system looks large and inefficient considering how simple this thing really is.

Any other reviews or thoughts? Im going to try to find a BCA 32 to try on soon.

The ABS packs retail for more than the Blackjack, since they have dual airbags and venturi.

All of these airbags have a lot of volume, and you'd need a case of 12g CO2 cylinders to fill one (assuming you're okay with your head buried next to 150L of CO2, which could have a slow leak). The cylinder for all of the packs is about the same size, and half of the fill volume comes from extra air drawn in via the venturi. The cylinder by itself would only half-fill a bag. The BCA system really couldn't be any smaller, and IMHO the BCA "stuff-sack" pouch is more fail-safe than folding bags like other systems.

I actually fold my Blackjack bag differently than the instructions, since folding end-over-end greatly increases internal friction to unfurl. I do an accordion-fold on mine, so the PSI on the burst zipper is multiplied by the number of folded sections. Theoretically, if the bag had too much resistance to opening, the airflow could go backwards out the venturi. (Naturally I would recommend following the manufacturer's instructions, and any deviations are at your own risk.)

[1000-oaks]

The problem with compressed gas is that it's a huge pain to re-arm the bag and, therefore, to test it out. I triggered the Blackjack once in my living room just to get a feel for what it's like and to make sure everything worked. It took me five phone calls, a 30 minute drive to the nearest dive shop, and $5 just to refill the canister. Factor in the time spent actually disassembling and re-assembling the activator (which involves replacing and lubricating a tiny O-ring, among many other steps), and I never want to test it out again.

If battery-operated airbags allow you to re-arm the system without having to leave you apartment, that by itself is a huge advantage over compressed air.

My experience was a little different, being near the coast there are lots of dive shops nearby, and replacing the o-ring didn't take hardly any time at all. Being one to modify the hell out of things (lots of tools and access to a machine shop), I like knowing exactly how the mechanism works.

[North]

The problem with compressed gas is that it's a huge pain to re-arm the bag and, therefore, to test it out. I triggered the Blackjack once in my living room just to get a feel for what it's like and to make sure everything worked. It took me five phone calls, a 30 minute drive to the nearest dive shop, and $5 just to refill the canister. Factor in the time spent actually disassembling and re-assembling the activator (which involves replacing and lubricating a tiny O-ring, among many other steps), and I never want to test it out again.

If battery-operated airbags allow you to re-arm the system without having to leave you apartment, that by itself is a huge advantage over compressed air.

My experience was a little different, being near the coast there are lots of dive shops nearby, and replacing the o-ring didn't take hardly any time at all. Being one to modify the hell out of things (lots of tools and access to a machine shop), I like knowing exactly how the mechanism works.

My experience has been more like 1000-oaks. I detonated my BlackJack ~5x last year - all for travel purposes. Didn't end up filling it in SLC, but found a dive shop in downtown Anchorage within 10 mins of arrival. I'm landlocked (Boulder) yet there are two dive shops within a 5 mile radius of my home. Guess the convenience is totally dependent on your locale, but finding places to fill hasn't been an issue for me thus far.

[neck beard]

Battery-powered spooks me

a small explosive charge in the handle (probably something like a blank round for a starting pistol or concrete anchor) that sends a jet of compressed gas through the hose, which I assume drives a pin that punctures the seal on the nitrogen bottle.

And battery powered spooks you?



I'm not calling you out or trying to change your mind. And no doubt course battery+fan will have potential hitech fault/failure/maintenance problems of its own.

[Lindahl]

Take a look at the Mammut bags. By far the best carrying of anything I've tried (BCA and ABS). Go with the Pro models as they carry WAY better than the Ride models. I use a Pro 35 for long trips and a Rocker 18 for slackcountry and laps where my car is 15-20 mins away. I add a drybag strapped on to the 35 for hut trips. Really easy to switch the airbag between each - takes 5 min tops. Keep an eye out for deals and gear swap. I got my entire setup for about 750 (two packs, airbag and cannister).

I bet the Blackjack works well, but no way in hell am I carrying around a 42L pack in the slackcountry. No matter the compression system, it still feels like shit in the air. I didn't even like the Mammut 22. Divided panels for avy gear just doesn't provide a compact enough package for comfort in the air, even when strapped tight/solid. The Rocker 18 feels sooo much better in the air. Super compact. I love the idea of a vest, but they're just way too hot to wear - they kill airflow inside your jacket which is super important for comfort and ventilation.

Mystery Ranch has a smaller pack in the works, but same problem as the Mammut 22, too much weight away from your back for comfort in the air:

http://www.utahoutside.com/2013/01/m...door-retailer/

[neck beard]

they kill airflow inside your jacket which is super important for comfort and ventilation

No nastiness intended at all, but as time goes by, your rather voluminous gear opinions tend to contradict themselves.

ps - I carry a 40L pack 20 minutes from my car because friends who need my [mainly shock management] help can't ski to the car with a broken femur or when unconscious. I also don't huck in avalanche terrain, so the comfort of an avalanche pack in the air (the irony) is redundant.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Just read this: http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-avalanche-airbag-effectiveness-something-closer-truth

Will be buying an airbag this year. Even if there are only 5-10 days a I wear it, the benefits are just too clear, even if you're a skeptic.

Need to figure which is easiest to bring to Europe.

[Lindahl]

No nastiness intended at all, but as time goes by, your rather voluminous gear opinions tend to contradict themselves.

What are you referring to, specifically? You know I was talking about external vests right? (North Face/Wary)

I also don't huck in avalanche terrain, so the comfort of an avalanche pack in the air (the irony) is redundant.

Quite fair.

[1000-oaks]

And battery powered spooks you?



I'm not calling you out or trying to change your mind. And no doubt course battery+fan will have potential hitech fault/failure/maintenance problems of its own.

Lol, that's one of the reasons I went for the Blackjack. No battery to die in the cold and no charge that might or might not fire. I'm sure the defect rate in explosive caps is less than 0.01%, but I like a simple mechanical trigger. There would have to be a failure in the cable linkage somewhere for it to not work.

I bet the Blackjack works well, but no way in hell am I carrying around a 42L pack in the slackcountry. No matter the compression system, it still feels like shit in the air. [/url]

If all you're carrying is avi gear, you can fold in the sides and run the snowboard carry straps around the entire pack, making it tight and no thicker than your shovel for the lower 3/4 of the pack. (The cylinder nests into the void in the shovel, if you have a decent sized one.) The airbag pouch sticks out a few more inches to the rear, at the top of the pack. It's a pretty tight package though.