Unofficial 2013 Avi Air Bag Pack thread

[wilcox510]

Did they change the float 32 from last year? How so?

[GPP33]

Did they change the float 32 from last year? How so?

It's a completely new pack. I looked at them again today and the shovel pocket is bigger than I thought. It holds my Volie shovel fine and that's a big awkward shovel. It however appears to have no provision to hold a snowboard which kinda blows me away.

I also looked at a Northface bag (mid 20l) with the ABS system which was a complete failure. Not sure why it's so difficult to make a decent pack with an airbag in it.

[GPP33]

I forgot to mention that I also looked at an Ortovox with the ABS system. Crazy bad design.

[wilcox510]

What about the Mammut Pro Protection pack, anyone played around with one and have any thoughts on it?

[mtskier]

I assume some of you would be interested in this, so here goes.

Mags get to take an additional 10% off any Mammut airbag pack using this coupon:

TGR10more

I will also remove to shipping charge for anyone using this code.

Please keep in mind that the packs do not include the cartridge in the price and all cartridges will be shipped empty to avoid the hazardous shipping charge.

If you can add it to your cart, it is available. Sorry for the spam. Thanks for looking.

[dcpnz]

It's a completely new pack. I looked at them again today and the shovel pocket is bigger than I thought. It holds my Volie shovel fine and that's a big awkward shovel.

Really??
Looks exactly same as my float 32 from last year. Obviously very different than the Float 36 from two years ago.
What did they change this year (aside from trigger upgrade/recall - see other thread if you own one)?

[LC]

Has anyone checked out Mammut's Light RAS 30 in the flesh? Seems a nice simple design. Too simple? I can live without a separate shovel/probe pocket, but will need to try it on for comfort - no hip padding and less back padding than most packs. Just how light and susceptible to damage is the main pack material? I'm 6ft4 so length is always an issue for packs - my current BD Covert is the best fit I've had. The Mammut shop should have stock here in the next month I guess, but any info in advance would be nice.

[icelanticskier]

for a 26 yo enginerd, the op seems a bit numb when it comes to figuring shit out on his own. good thing mommy and daddy are helping out with finances and stuff. you can at least figure out what color you like, right?

be safe out there

rog

[Altaholic]

I got a killer deal this summer on an ABS pack when they were 50% off (I should have waited two weeks longer, they dropped to 60% off, then quickly sold out) on bc.com, I was looking at Mammut Snowpulse as well, but I like the option of a 40 Liter Vario cover for big backcountry trips, while most Village/Teton Pass days I'll have the DaKine 25 Liter cover on.

The DaKine 18L/25L/40L are super well thought out, way better than the Vario covers. I got my 40L ABS Vario cover for a killer steal on Geartrade that I could not pass up for cheap & practically brand new. Arva (One of my buddies just one of those covers up) has some good covers as well that better than ABS Vario 25 Liter for everyday use.

To be honest I would rather trust a cylinder versus a battery system until one is proven effective after a couple seasons of testing. Even that I'm still wary of that system.

SkiingSamurai, I'll see ya this winter in Jackson.

[Tommyogrady]

If you are looking for bca float 22 or 32, go to campsaver.com. They have 5 day sale. 20% coupon 'twenty20' is valid on bags and canister. Sale started today.

[Altaholic]

ABS packs are 20-25% off on backcountry. I'll admit, I like the option of zipping on different size covers. I have a 25L for Resort/slackcountry and a 40L for bigger bc trips.

[sfotex]

Just read this: http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-avalanche-airbag-effectiveness-something-closer-truth

Will be buying an airbag this year. Even if there are only 5-10 days a I wear it, the benefits are just too clear, even if you're a skeptic.

Need to figure which is easiest to bring to Europe.

Hope you didn't gloss over this part:

My pet peeve with this issue is that people who argue about the numbers often leave the most important part out of the discussion--terrain. If you get caught in un-survivable terrain then, guess what, you won’t survive no matter what kind of rescue gear you use. There have been a number of prominent accidents in which the victim with a deployed airbag died because he was either strained through thick trees and rocks, deposited in a terrain trap, buried deeply or went over a cliff. In zero-tolerance-for-error terrain, airbags don’t work, beacons don’t work, Avalungs don’t work. Nothing works. Save your money, buy a life insurance policy and a beacon or RECCO so rescuers don’t have to spend all night probing.

So at least for me, unless I’m 99.9 percent certain that the slope won’t slide, then I don’t go to un-survivable terrain. If I’m going to spend the money and carry the extra weight of an avalanche airbag pack, I want to ride in terrain where it has a chance to make a difference. In other words, choose terrain with no obstacles, no terrain traps or sharp transitions and avoid large avalanche paths.

The other part of the discussion is the often-overlooked issue of what we call “risk homeostasis.” Each gizmo we buy to increase our safety usually cause us to increase our level of risk at the same time. For instance, when we added seat belts and airbags to cars, yes fatalities decreased, but it also allowed us to drive faster, farther, crazier and talk on our mobile phones at the same time. So safety measures usually work but not nearly as well as we would hope because people just increase their risk (and “utility”) at the same time. In avalanche airbag case, we will also get more powder, more fun, and more risk in the bargain.

[Chugachjed]

Up here in Alaska where I ski 95% of my skiing is in alpine terrain with no trees around at all. I think that this is ideal terrain for an airbag, I just bought a float 32 and hope I never have to pull the trigger. But if I do I likely won't have trees to get strained through.

[comish]

Where can one buy BCA Float cylinders in Yurp for anything less than full boat? Largely bought them for a trip to Austria, now need to buy the cartridges over there so don't have to deal with shipping...

[skiingsamurai]

Hope you didn't gloss over this part:

My pet peeve with this issue is that people who argue about the numbers often leave the most important part out of the discussion--terrain. If you get caught in un-survivable terrain then, guess what, you won’t survive no matter what kind of rescue gear you use. There have been a number of prominent accidents in which the victim with a deployed airbag died because he was either strained through thick trees and rocks, deposited in a terrain trap, buried deeply or went over a cliff. In zero-tolerance-for-error terrain, airbags don’t work, beacons don’t work, Avalungs don’t work. Nothing works. Save your money, buy a life insurance policy and a beacon or RECCO so rescuers don’t have to spend all night probing.

So at least for me, unless I’m 99.9 percent certain that the slope won’t slide, then I don’t go to un-survivable terrain. If I’m going to spend the money and carry the extra weight of an avalanche airbag pack, I want to ride in terrain where it has a chance to make a difference. In other words, choose terrain with no obstacles, no terrain traps or sharp transitions and avoid large avalanche paths.

The other part of the discussion is the often-overlooked issue of what we call “risk homeostasis.” Each gizmo we buy to increase our safety usually cause us to increase our level of risk at the same time. For instance, when we added seat belts and airbags to cars, yes fatalities decreased, but it also allowed us to drive faster, farther, crazier and talk on our mobile phones at the same time. So safety measures usually work but not nearly as well as we would hope because people just increase their risk (and “utility”) at the same time. In avalanche airbag case, we will also get more powder, more fun, and more risk in the bargain.

In my opinion, that is the most important part of the article. I dont plan on taking any more risks when I have an air bag on. I'm sure that doesn't hold true for everyone, but I dont want to be in a real side (been in little pocket slides and soiled myself) even with every live saving gizmo out there.

Same logic as saying "Just because I have a helmet on doesnt mean Im going faster or harder than I would without one on."

[PNWbrit]

For instance, when we added seat belts and airbags to cars, yes fatalities decreased, but it also allowed us to drive faster, farther, crazier and talk on our mobile phones at the same time

Seriously.... you think people talk on mobile phones while driving because they have airbags?

That's worthy of Rawg.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Hope you didn't gloss over this part:

Yeah, I read the whole thing carefully. The article makes the case that the perceived effectiveness of airbags may be inflated by marketing claims. I agree. However Tremper also says this:

"My best guess is that avalanche airbag packs will probably save a little more than half of those who would have otherwise have died in an avalanche. They will never save all of them because 1 out of 4 will likely die from trauma of hitting trees and rocks on the way down and an additional 1 out of 4 will probably end up in a terrain trap (deep burial), buried by a secondary avalanche or caught in an avalanche that does not travel far enough for the inverse segregation process to work (larger objects rise to the surface)."

He intended the numbers to discourage over-enthusiasm. But they had the opposite effect on me. I was skeptical to begin with. Hearing these estimate from a fellow skeptic who knows infinitely more about the subject than I do convinced me it was time to seriously consider getting an airbag.

I'm a full on coward in avalanche terrain and proud of it. I mostly ski in the Northeast, where terrain traps are the norm, and deaths by trauma are more common than deaths by asphyxiation, and in the Dolomites, where I ski some open, alpine terrain, but mostly trees and couloirs where an avy would mean pinballing between rock faces. However, I believe that ignoring a technology proven to have the potential to save your life is no less irresponsible than allowing that same piece of technology to lull you into a false sense of security.

[sfotex]

Seriously.... you think people talk on mobile phones while driving because they have airbags?

That's worthy of Rawg.

No, that's worthy of Bruce Tremper.

[F.D.V.]

No idea who fed you this...but when I spoke to BCA yesterday they said that there were no changes to the Float 32, 22, or Throttle this year.

So, yeah, same pack as the previous issue.

It's a completely new pack. I looked at them again today and the shovel pocket is bigger than I thought. It holds my Volie shovel fine and that's a big awkward shovel. It however appears to have no provision to hold a snowboard which kinda blows me away.

I also looked at a Northface bag (mid 20l) with the ABS system which was a complete failure. Not sure why it's so difficult to make a decent pack with an airbag in it.

[icelanticskier]

Hope you didn't gloss over this part:

My pet peeve with this issue is that people who argue about the numbers often leave the most important part out of the discussion--terrain. If you get caught in un-survivable terrain then, guess what, you won’t survive no matter what kind of rescue gear you use. There have been a number of prominent accidents in which the victim with a deployed airbag died because he was either strained through thick trees and rocks, deposited in a terrain trap, buried deeply or went over a cliff. In zero-tolerance-for-error terrain, airbags don’t work, beacons don’t work, Avalungs don’t work. Nothing works. Save your money, buy a life insurance policy and a beacon or RECCO so rescuers don’t have to spend all night probing.

So at least for me, unless I’m 99.9 percent certain that the slope won’t slide, then I don’t go to un-survivable terrain. If I’m going to spend the money and carry the extra weight of an avalanche airbag pack, I want to ride in terrain where it has a chance to make a difference. In other words, choose terrain with no obstacles, no terrain traps or sharp transitions and avoid large avalanche paths.

The other part of the discussion is the often-overlooked issue of what we call “risk homeostasis.” Each gizmo we buy to increase our safety usually cause us to increase our level of risk at the same time. For instance, when we added seat belts and airbags to cars, yes fatalities decreased, but it also allowed us to drive faster, farther, crazier and talk on our mobile phones at the same time. So safety measures usually work but not nearly as well as we would hope because people just increase their risk (and “utility”) at the same time. In avalanche airbag case, we will also get more powder, more fun, and more risk in the bargain.

thank you

rog

[Altaholic]

I was caught in slide couple years (Broken Branch Couloir) ago on a peliminary ski cut & my BD Avalung pack did not help me at all when I started cartwheeling (luckily that saved me from being buried, skied away with a cracked rib, but I had buddies right on me when it happened), my own damn fault. It was a line I wanted too badly & thought I could manage the situation, I came away from that never to do that ever again. Once time is enough, no matter how sweet the line.

I know two guys that have had to deploy their bags last season, I feel safer having an ABS pack now, but you also have to know bc skills. It is like knowing how to drive a sports car on a race track. You can have all the tools, but if you don't know how to use it, what's the point of having it??

[skiingsamurai]

I was caught in slide couple years (Broken Branch Couloir) ago on a peliminary ski cut & my BD Avalung pack did not help me at all when I started cartwheeling (luckily that saved me from being buried, skied away with a cracked rib, but I had buddies right on me when it happened), my own damn fault. It was a line I wanted too badly & thought I could manage the situation, I came away from that never to do that ever again. Once time is enough, no matter how sweet the line.

I know two guys that have had to deploy their bags last season, I feel safer having an ABS pack now, but you also have to know bc skills. It is like knowing how to drive a sports car on a race track. You can have all the tools, but if you don't know how to use it, what's the point of having it??

Scary, dude. Broken Branch is still one of the most fun lines I've skied. It is definitely the most interesting down hike into Ive had to do.

We ALL agree that an airbag is no excuse to be an idiot. Obviously all BC and outdoor skills/decision making still need to be applied 100% of the time. We ALL also agree that an airbag does not guarantee you'll live.



Back on the topic of gear: I tried on the ABS packs the other day and seem to like them. Am I correct in deducing that you can simply zip on a bigger pack to the airbag "base"?
Any comments on how well they carry skis? Its tough to walk around a tiny shop after throwing 10 lbs of their gear for sale and a pair of skis off the shelf in a pack...

[TeleGreen]

Has anyone tried the abs vario silver and can shed some light on the differences between that and the standard vario

[skiitsbetter]

anyone have problems with cylinders leaking? my float was down to <500psi halfway through last season. is that normal?

[skimaxpower]

anyone have problems with cylinders leaking? my float was down to <500psi halfway through last season. is that normal?

The cylinder will show a high reading initially after being filled. (It's also really warm!) But it should cool down and reach a stable level in a hour or two.

My Float cylinder shows the same reading now that it did last spring. If you're losing air, probably best to deploy, replace O-rings, and refill.