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  1. #1001
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    Oct 2004
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    Madd Propz for that work RA - lotta people will really enjoy this

  2. #1002
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona13 View Post
    I'ver spent my whole season down in this one canyon at East Zion. We started in April and should be done this week there. This has been an epic. When I finally crested the rim of the canyon it was a sort of dramatic music moment for me. It felt good to get that portion of the project completed but it's bitter sweet after completely falling in love with the area.


    I called this climb/bi-directional section F-17 as in F bomb x 17 switch back builds. It was a great opportunity to get my material management and climbing turn builds more dialed. After all was said and done with phase two I did 26 climbing turn switches in this canyon and the terrain was RUGGED. It was a fantastic learning experience but I was over climbing trails by #18 and ready to build some DH trail.
    Attachment 427082
    FKNA! That looks like a great climb! I would love to get out there and do a machine/hand build. That to me is probably the perfect combo trail. Throw some hand built techy stuff with fat berms and jumps. Just wreaks of fun!

  3. #1003
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    Thanks Zion Zig Zag, TBS and Jackstraw. As you all know, trail building is really hard. It's nice to get an atta boy every now and then.

    I heard a lot of people say that East Zion wasn't really worth the time because there simply wasn't much there. Well, starting in a week or two that should be changing. Phase 1 wasn't a whole lot of mileage or vertical. Probably 150-180 vert total and around 10 miles of trail. Well now there's an additional two systems connected to phase 1 and I think there's probably about 1000 vets total. You can shuttle from the bottom to an upper lot, climb up 4-500 vertical from there on an easy climbing trail and ride all the way through back to your car at the bottom. I think it's going to be sweet but each of the 4 connected systems are more of the session kind in nature with directional climbs to directional downs. If you don't like machine built trail, berms jumps and modern dh trail this place probably isn't for you but there are some hand built tech trails and xc riding here and there, enough to get in a decent ride at least.

    @jackstraw, it's a fun climb. It's steep and punchy with the right amount of recovery sections in between. I have to take it nice and slow but I found a really fun rhythm to it.

    There's three dh's in the new canyon system, two off the top and one that extends from those down to the bottom. The lower trail is half hand built and half machine. The land manager plans to put in a big, tall and pretty skinny bridge across the wash at the end of it all. I think it's a great mixed trail and a ton of fun. I'm big on the mixed builds. I'm big on all kinds of builds honestly. After a ton of seat time in the x I'm pumped to get to Kingman to do some really cool hand builds. Stoked!
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  4. #1004
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    Aug 2002
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    PA
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    2,648
    Looks great!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  5. #1005
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    Jan 2009
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    SLC burbs
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    4,186
    Hot damn, East Zion is now on the list, these trails look DOPE!

    RA13, mad props for your work. I started digging this year in a zone that is about as easy to work with as it gets and the magnitude of the work blew my mind. I thought I'd be done in no time but 2.5 months into it I have about 2.5 miles of trail and if I had to guess I'd say close 100 hours of work.
    Looking at your pics, even with serious equipment and volunteers to help it looks like an absolutely brutal amount of work. Thanks again for doing it!
    "Your wife being mad is temporary, but pow turns do not get unmade" - mallwalker the wise

  6. #1006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boissal View Post
    Hot damn, East Zion is now on the list, these trails look DOPE!

    RA13, mad props for your work. I started digging this year in a zone that is about as easy to work with as it gets and the magnitude of the work blew my mind. I thought I'd be done in no time but 2.5 months into it I have about 2.5 miles of trail and if I had to guess I'd say close 100 hours of work.
    Looking at your pics, even with serious equipment and volunteers to help it looks like an absolutely brutal amount of work. Thanks again for doing it!
    Thank you Boisall, trail building is so freaking gnarly and exhausting, I often joke that it's my primary sport with actual riding being a sort of byproduct.

    I get paid to do the work so it's not altruistic is any way but the pay isn't great but the payout once it's done and I see people enjoying themselves is priceless. This probably sounds goofy or like I've got some sort of "visions of grandeur" complex but by building cool trails you get to create experiences for people. We all know when we just discovered a really good one compared to something that's just sort of there, the good ones get people extremely stoked and putting that stoke out there and into the universe is the jam and does the world a whole lotta good imho.

    I just finished my time at ZMR, hopefully I can get back to build more and do some maintenance work for them. I was going to ride today but I'm dead. I used up everything I had to wrap up a few final projects on the system.

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    dirtbag, not a dentist

  7. #1007
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    Dec 2002
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    cow hampshire
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    Yeah, RA13! I probably have more hours building these days than actually riding. I primarily build in four different areas locally. One is the most technically difficult locally and one other is the easiest beginner zone around. Both ends of the spectrum. The beginner area sees a lot of kids with their parents and nothing brings a smile to my face more than seeing the groms out there just having fun. And as a hack non-pro builder I cannot emphasize how much the Rogue Travis tool has made my life so much better. That tool is amazing.

  8. #1008
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    Dec 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    Yeah, RA13! I probably have more hours building these days than actually riding. I primarily build in four different areas locally. One is the most technically difficult locally and one other is the easiest beginner zone around. Both ends of the spectrum. The beginner area sees a lot of kids with their parents and nothing brings a smile to my face more than seeing the groms out there just having fun. And as a hack non-pro builder I cannot emphasize how much the Rogue Travis tool has made my life so much better. That tool is amazing.
    Dude.....seeing kids, families and everyone else get stoked and even giddy with joy has got to be the best buzz out there. I'm completely addicted to that and the whole process. It's so freaking hard and all consuming. It teaches us patience and persistency well beyond anything else I've ever done.

    I like building everything. Green trails can be super fun for everyone when done right. Tech, flow, jumps, gnar.....all of it man. It's all great. I don't get the attitude some riders have where they only like this or that and adamantly describe their dislike for any sort of style or experience. It's all fun.

    I've been under the impression that the Rogue Travis is a pretty awesome jack of many trades sort of tool but, if I can have separate more specific tools I prefer that. I always tell Vols to use the right tool for the right job and if I need a pick mattock there isn't anything really better than a pick mattock, same with say a Mcleod or a Pulaski. But if I were doing solo work and riding/hiking to work sites on my own I bet it's the best way to go for moving light and fast. That being said, I could be completely wrong about this as I haven't had any real time using a Rogue Travis.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  9. #1009
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona13 View Post
    Dude.....seeing kids, families and everyone else get stoked and even giddy with joy has got to be the best buzz out there. I'm completely addicted to that and the whole process. It's so freaking hard and all consuming. It teaches us patience and persistency well beyond anything else I've ever done.

    I like building everything. Green trails can be super fun for everyone when done right. Tech, flow, jumps, gnar.....all of it man. It's all great. I don't get the attitude some riders have where they only like this or that and adamantly describe their dislike for any sort of style or experience. It's all fun.

    I've been under the impression that the Rogue Travis is a pretty awesome jack of many trades sort of tool but, if I can have separate more specific tools I prefer that. I always tell Vols to use the right tool for the right job and if I need a pick mattock there isn't anything really better than a pick mattock, same with say a Mcleod or a Pulaski. But if I were doing solo work and riding/hiking to work sites on my own I bet it's the best way to go for moving light and fast. That being said, I could be completely wrong about this as I haven't had any real time using a Rogue Travis.
    Yeah, jackass riders bitching about trails are pathetic, especially if they've never lifted a finger to help build or the best is when they won't stop to pick up some debris and ride around it instead. It's never the good or great riders I've noticed. My friend, who is arguably one of the best riders around here, hits my easy area once in a while and loves how he can practice bike body separation. Embrace the different trail styles and improve your game.

    Oh no, you're absolutely correct. In my tech area I currently have 2 mattocks, 1 Mcleod, 2 six foot digging bars, shovel, bucket, hard rake, and a Travis tool stashed. Plus my friends have a couple tools stashed also. The digging bars are critical with all the boulders we have. And even having them stashed it's still a pia getting them from A to B out there. Logistic issues

    I have 2 Travis tools, so one stays in my truck. It's perfect to just cruise down a trail quickly and do just about any type of quick work needed. I just built a new short .3 trail in the easy network. Aside from chainsaw work, I built the whole thing with the travis and a rake. Pretty happy with the results. Fun, flowy, fast (when it gets ridden in!) adder.

  10. #1010
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    After living here for 20 years now I've learned to really appreciate easier trail. It's nice to turn off the brain and tune out every now and then on trails that aren't super busy like most of what we have Ain Arizona. I love falling deep into a flow state and just honking along.

    But like anything else, I get bored with too much of any one thing. It's sort of a curse and a blessing I guess.
    Last edited by raisingarizona13; 09-29-2022 at 10:34 AM.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  11. #1011
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    Yeah, I like the variety as well. Although, I prefer the tech, it does beat the shit out of me, so it's nice to take a break from it. 10 miles there is like riding 25 in an easier area.

  12. #1012
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    I find a Rogue Hoe or Travis to be better than a McLeod for debris removal, bench cut, shaping, and coarse raking. The smaller head and better construction makes it more versatile, and you can do some light prying or digging without worrying about snapping or bending the head. The McLeod is sometimes better for tamping with the wider flat head (though a dedicated tamper is better than either). For removing rocks or chopping roots I still prefer a Pulaski or a mattock (or rock bar or folding saw).

  13. #1013
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    Quote Originally Posted by teledad View Post
    I find a Rogue Hoe or Travis to be better than a McLeod for debris removal, bench cut, shaping, and coarse raking. The smaller head and better construction makes it more versatile, and you can do some light prying or digging without worrying about snapping or bending the head. The McLeod is sometimes better for tamping with the wider flat head (though a dedicated tamper is better than either). For removing rocks or chopping roots I still prefer a Pulaski or a mattock (or rock bar or folding saw).
    The Mcleod for me is all light duty. I use a a heavy mattock for bench cutting then follow through afterwords with a McLeod for the finer tuning. With a heavy mattock I can let the tool do a lot of the hard effort instead of my back. My Mcleod is light and that helps me conserve energy when in for a long haul. I rarely use the rake side and prefer the flat side to lightly tune up the tread, backslope and out slope after its shaped. I wouldn't ever use one for bench cutting unless maybe the soil was predominantly sand, I would easily kill a Mcleod very quickly using it that way. The extra width makes those specific tasks much faster. When I say long haul I mean full time hand building, some projects have taken 12-15 months. I like the Rogues but they feel really heavy but yet, not as heavy as my mattock. If I did every bit of hand built construction with one it would ware me out much too fast. I'd be working too hard compared to using different tools. This is why I tell the vols to use proper tools for the right tasks. They tend to beat themselves up and break their tools unnecessarily. Once you're on a really big, full time project the little things really matter, especially at 47! This is also why I think the Rogues are a rad jack of all trades tool but not always perfect for professional building where we can have a small army of 20 yr olds carry in all of the gear anyways and use more specific tools for any given job.

    It all depends on where, what, time duration for the project etc. I definitely think a rogue is perfect for a part time volunteer or an under the radar trail builder that wants to move fast and do quick, touch up jobs or basic maintenance. Carrying three separate tools can be a real PIA but it's not a huge deal on a professional new trail construction project. Everything you said makes complete sense to me, as long as it's not a full time thing I'm doing and I only want to carry one tool.

    As far as tamping goes, your boot is better than all of those tools if you think about the weight to area ratio. Tamping is nice for jump take offs/landings and it definitely makes the gram photos look sweet but beyond that it's mostly fluff compared to regular use.

    Sorry if that's too long winded but I'm a total trail building nerd and I spend way too much time in the field thinking this all over. I often work 8 to 10 hour days for 6 to 8 days straight at a time and every bit of technique adds up and starts to really matter.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  14. #1014
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    Dec 2007
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    Hell Track
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    RA: Your pics from the last couple pages looks awesome! Some day I'll make it down there to ride some of that. You seem to have a good philosophy on trail building that aligns with many of my preferences.

    On the tools discussion, I'm a big fan of the Rogue 70H - 7" wide hoe with no rake. For most of the work I do, a rake isn't particularly necessary. A Mcleod is a bit too light and gets mangled on rocks, and unless the dirt's really loose, the blade bites off too much material, which is tiring. The 70H has more width than a pulaski or mattock, but it's still narrow enough that it works alright for digging and loosening dirt. I also like the shorter axe handle of the 70H over the longer straight handle of a Mcleod. Although the rockier the dirt gets, the more I'm inclined towards a smaller head like a Mattock or a pulaski.

  15. #1015
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    RA: Your pics from the last couple pages looks awesome! Some day I'll make it down there to ride some of that. You seem to have a good philosophy on trail building that aligns with many of my preferences.

    On the tools discussion, I'm a big fan of the Rogue 70H - 7" wide hoe with no rake. For most of the work I do, a rake isn't particularly necessary. A Mcleod is a bit too light and gets mangled on rocks, and unless the dirt's really loose, the blade bites off too much material, which is tiring. The 70H has more width than a pulaski or mattock, but it's still narrow enough that it works alright for digging and loosening dirt. I also like the shorter axe handle of the 70H over the longer straight handle of a Mcleod. Although the rockier the dirt gets, the more I'm inclined towards a smaller head like a Mattock or a pulaski.
    thanks man!

    All of this makes sense, down here we are almost always dealing with a shit ton of rock in the soil. That's definitely shaped my tool preferences. I imagine it's different for a lot of us because of location/local geology. Again, I'm a super nerd so I totally love these discussions.

    What's up with that bike park up there Toast? I don't think it's the one at the ski area but it's in the flathead Valley. I follow em on Instagram and the trails looks freaking amazing.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  16. #1016
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    On the tools discussion, I'm a big fan of the Rogue 70H - 7" wide hoe with no rake. For most of the work I do, a rake isn't particularly necessary. A Mcleod is a bit too light and gets mangled on rocks, and unless the dirt's really loose, the blade bites off too much material, which is tiring. The 70H has more width than a pulaski or mattock, but it's still narrow enough that it works alright for digging and loosening dirt. I also like the shorter axe handle of the 70H over the longer straight handle of a Mcleod. Although the rockier the dirt gets, the more I'm inclined towards a smaller head like a Mattock or a pulaski.
    I'm loving the Rogue 55H with the rake for rockier and rootier terrain. The rake is great to a 1st pass cleanup removing small plants and brush and the narrower head works a bit better when digging into rocky stuff. It's also light enough that I can swing it around all day without blowing up. I was at it for 9 hours last Sat and when I walked out my upper body was PISSED.
    I wanted to try a Travis at first then realized I never really use the pick and the longer toothed rake makes more sense for what I do.
    "Your wife being mad is temporary, but pow turns do not get unmade" - mallwalker the wise

  17. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by raisingarizona13 View Post

    What's up with that bike park up there Toast? I don't think it's the one at the ski area but it's in the flathead Valley. I follow em on Instagram and the trails looks freaking amazing.
    Legacy bike park. Super fun - they have 4 or 5 jump trails of varying sizes/difficulties, and a handful of natural tech trails that are mostly of the rooty loamy variety. They also have a campground zone with a pump track, airbag jump and mulch jump.

    It's a pretty cool area, and this is just their second year open. They're constantly adding bits of trail, so every time I go there's something new.

    Pete Costain and Terraflow is the trail building company behind it. They've done a ton of work around the flathead, and also down in big sky and over in Idaho. Great guy, and his trail building business has really taken off over the last few years. Incidentally, his son is Parkin Costain who's a ripper on bikes and skis and has been in the last few TGR ski movies.

  18. #1018
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    Dec 2002
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    Quote Originally Posted by toast2266 View Post
    Although the rockier the dirt gets, the more I'm inclined towards a smaller head like a Mattock or a pulaski.
    See, that's the beauty of the Travis. The narrow end is similar to a Mattock so I can pull small boulders easily and then the rake to clean the surface layer, narrow hoe for cutting roots etc, and fat hoe for everything else. Four useable surfaces. The Travis rocks man!!

  19. #1019
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    Mar 2010
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    637
    nice work in here as usual gents!

    caught this one in a memory feed recently from 2015ish, working with the groms is always a good time
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    also enjoy the tool topic, everyone does things a little different, i focus on bike park and finish work, rarely do any bench cutting

    go to setup is a 3 pack
    rogue 55A- break up packed dirt, pick out bigger rocks, smash shit
    metal rake- pick small rocks out, contour dirt
    flat shovel- 90% of the time this is whats in my hands, pack pack pack

    mattock and spade come out for larger dirt shaping projects
    i hate mcleods with a passion but will happily hand them out to other volunteers

    its also interesting to think about how trail design can influence riding, not just in creating the experience, but in how you can control the experience

    since i like to focus on finish work one of the more obvious things i find is that prepacking the entry to berms leads them to be ridden better with less braking bumps as a result, just by drawing a riders eye into the berm early and their interpretation that the packed area is where they "should" be riding completely changes their approach

    of course this only works when riders speak the same language as the builder, something ive also gotten very wrong haha

  20. #1020
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    Sep 2001
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    T.ride
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    Nice work RaisingArizona and others that are busting out more trail!

    We finished up another one here in Telluride and weather permitting we'll have it open for the last two weekends of the season.

    Steep complex terrain with tons of wood.. tight switchbacks made pitting out very difficult and required much planning. Finished trail is just under a mile long with 17 corners and is a progression trail for building up to a blue jump trail. Of course there are more cynical bikers out there who are always ready to rip on 'blue flow' ...but this ones fun as shit. Although I am a little biased

    Here are some before and after shots. We use a John Deere 60 with a thumb followed by a 35 with a tilt roto bucket ��. Then Hand finished and reveged.


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  21. #1021
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    It's so wild to see machine building pics. I've never built with one. We had a tractor out in one spot, but it didn't cut it for anything more than the wench ha winch to set up a long skinny.

    Up in the White mtns cleaning deadfall on some old hike/bike trails near our cabin. Riding old hiking trails is so old school and kind of painful , but fun.
    Last edited by jackstraw; 10-01-2022 at 11:03 AM.

  22. #1022
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    Nov 2007
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    London Mountain
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    Great shots Rip! Building blue flow in terrain like that is so time consuming. Looks fun to ride! Props to your machine operators.

  23. #1023
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    That looks dope Rip! I'd be stoked to lap that all day.

    I probably need to get back up to Telluride next summer.
    dirtbag, not a dentist

  24. #1024
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    Thanks all. Would love to show you around RaisingArizona or anyone else who makes it up this way.

    I run the bike trail crew here and was in the 60 cutting about 80% of this trail while also working with the crew building 'la cura' the previous vid, and keeping the hand crew dialed on both new trails, and all the while all of us were maintaining the rest of the trails thru a very wet summer. Needless to say it's been a bit busy.

    So glad to have this trail wrapped up as it completes what in my mind is phase one of the park build out. We now offer every type of riding from beginner to expert, flow to tech, cc to DH. There's still tons of room for improvement but this is a big step after 7 seasons of building.

  25. #1025
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    Nov 2010
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    Montrose, CO
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    Quote Originally Posted by rip View Post
    Thanks all. Would love to show you around RaisingArizona or anyone else who makes it up this way.

    I run the bike trail crew here and was in the 60 cutting about 80% of this trail while also working with the crew building 'la cura' the previous vid, and keeping the hand crew dialed on both new trails, and all the while all of us were maintaining the rest of the trails thru a very wet summer. Needless to say it's been a bit busy.

    So glad to have this trail wrapped up as it completes what in my mind is phase one of the park build out. We now offer every type of riding from beginner to expert, flow to tech, cc to DH. There's still tons of room for improvement but this is a big step after 7 seasons of building.
    I haven't made it down there to ride the bike park since July but I've been enjoying watching what you guys have been doing on IG. I really like the variety of trails in the park.

    Maybe I'll have to try and make it down there next weekend.

    If you want to scratch your desert itch I'm happy to show you around our new stuff here in Montrose.

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