Dig stoke, who else likes to play in the dirt???

[JerseyDave]

Dave, sometimes it's like someone pissed in your cheerios. That trail if perfect for a beginner. Not all beginners are kids. Some are 50+ women or men that don't want to risk falling. Get over yourself man.

50+ year old women who want to ride bikes, who are afraid to fall have an endless array of places to be a biker that is not in the forest riding on trails. Not all things should be for all people. Rail trails, rec paths, quiet dirt roads. If you're afraid to fall off a bike, don't ride it into the woods.

I looked into BASE jumping once. When I decided it was too dangerous for me, did I go about on a crusade to make it not dangerous because I was afraid to get hurt but really wanted to BASE jump? No. I could have used the excuse that I was trying to Grow the Sport.....move the economic needle by making BASE jumping safe and beginner friendly so everyone could be a BASE jumper......but that would be stupid.

[jackstraw]

50+ year old women who want to ride bikes, who are afraid to fall have an endless array of places to be a biker that is not in the forest riding on trails. Not all things should be for all people. Rail trails, rec paths, quiet dirt roads. If you're afraid to fall off a bike, don't ride it into the woods.

I looked into BASE jumping once. When I decided it was too dangerous for me, did I go about on a crusade to make it not dangerous because I was afraid to get hurt but really wanted BASE jump? No. I could use the excuse that I was trying to Grow the Sport.....move the economic needle by making BASE jumping safe and beginner friendly so everyone could be
a BASE jumper......but that would be a stupid.

Sometimes you make my brain hurt reading your ignorant posts.

[JerseyDave]

Sometimes you make my brain hurt reading your ignorant posts.

What, exactly, am I ignorant to?

[jackstraw]

Come on, comparing a person wanting to ride a bike in the woods vs base jumping? The analogy is so far off.

It's very easy to have nice chill trails in the woods vs some boring straight rail trail or road. There is plenty of tech trails in the woods and there is no reason not to have easy relaxing trails as well for people who want to just go for a "sunday" ride. I.E. people who like to CC ski or skin up and meadow skip down...like in most of VT.

[JerseyDave]

Come on, comparing a person wanting to ride a bike in the woods vs base jumping? The analogy is so far off.

It's very easy to have nice chill trails in the woods vs some boring straight rail trail or road. There is plenty of tech trails in the woods and there is no reason not to have easy relaxing trails as well for people who want to just go for a "sunday" ride. I.E. people who like to CC ski or skin up and meadow skip down...like in most of VT.

Wait....you called me ignorant. What, exactly, am I ignorant to? Your analogy makes no sense. You don't have to build a meadow to skip through. Inherent risk vs reward. You really arguing that MTB is not being packaged to less skilled, more affluent and entitled folks in general over the last decade? I've spent my time building out trail systems for pay and as a volunteer. I'm just honest. I ride with my kid. At 7 he was bored with trails that look like that, and I'm not saying he's exceptional. There is no reason a trail that works for beginners need to be wide and featureless. Gradient is the real issue with beginners. We could talk about this all day, but ultimately I'm just being honest and you'll just continue to insult, so let's not.

Here's a 6 and 8 year old riding single track. If you can't ride a bike as well as a small child, you might not be ready to ride through the forest. Go practice, learn, and earn it....6 year old riding featured single track. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGTI2oR7iA4 Tell me again we need wide, featureless trails for anyone.

[jackstraw]

Nobody cares about your kid...or you...or your mtn biking. Get over yourself. You're bloody ignorant man.

[californiagrown]

Nobody cares about your kid...or you...or your mtn biking. Get over yourself. You're bloody ignorant man.

Its all good. He can build the kind of trails he wants to build, and you and I can build the kind we want. Not really an issue. I like to build go arounds for the bigger features that i help build on. No one has a problem with that because im still helping stack the lip and landing of the big feature, and this way idiots like myself get a small mini hit on the side and won't roll over the top of the main lips fucking them up.

As a fellow builder, im sure he wouldn't try to tech-up someone else's trail, the same way you wouldn't dumb down his tech trails. Don't like someones trail, don't ride it and go build your own, or volunteer on trail days and lobby the head builders to put in sections you want to see. Remember, pick a trail style and be an asshole about it.

[JerseyDave]

Nobody cares about your kid...or you...or your mtn biking. Get over yourself. You're bloody ignorant man.

Wow. Didn't see that coming.

[jamal]

You're bloody ignorant man.

Wow. Didn't see that coming.

Checks out.

[grskier]

Checks out.

Not picking sides... but that made me LOL.

[RootSkier]

Here's a question for you guys:

We need to replace a bridge on a popular existing trail. Span is about 12', and the area is cliffy, so there's no real way to reroute around it. The forest in that area is shit - there's no worthwhile natural material to be harvested on site. Old bridge is made out of shitty natural materials, which is why it's being replaced. The bridge is a 15 minute (steep) uphill walk from the nearest place we can get a vehicle.

Original plan was to carry in some big beams, but after carrying in some smaller beams for another project in the area, I've decided that it's not particularly feasible to bring in beams that are big enough to cover that span. So I'm looking at carrying in some pressure treated 4x4's and building a pair of 4x12 laminated beams on site (thinking we'd epoxy them and then bolt them together). My gut tells me it'd be fine, but the internet tells me its a horrible idea and everyone will die.

Any ideas / experience / predictions of # of fatalities?

Did you do this yet? Check out https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/f...an-d_1479.html, which gives span tables for residential floors.

It shows that 2x12 select structural (fir around our parts) will span 25 feet if you put it on 12" centers. So if the bridge is ~36" wide, you have your two outside and one center joist, and that should EASILY span 12'.

Of course, I imagine you are using treated, so that is a little weaker. https://www.decks.com/how-to/41/deck...ng-and-spacing

Anyways, I would have zero concerns about making a 24" wide and 12' long bridge with 2 2x10s on either side that were bolted together. That should last a lot longer than you need it to. If you bolt/glue two pieces together, consider putting a joist protector on the top to keep water out from between the two members. Like https://www.amazon.com/Grace-Vycor-P...dDbGljaz10cnVl.

[jackstraw]

Its all good. He can build the kind of trails he wants to build, and you and I can build the kind we want. Not really an issue..

Absolutely. I've built a few different style trails, but prefer tech granite trial style with skinnys. Our terrain suits that type, but we also have chill relatively flat twisty trails.

The techy area has B-lines around almost all the punchy tight stuff now...which is fine. People not as skilled or that don't want the risk can still get out there and ride the features they're comfortable with and get this - have fun! This is apparently a concept Dave cannot quite grasp. Only certain people can have fun in his world.

[toast2266]

Did you do this yet? Check out https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/f...an-d_1479.html, which gives span tables for residential floors.

It shows that 2x12 select structural (fir around our parts) will span 25 feet if you put it on 12" centers. So if the bridge is ~36" wide, you have your two outside and one center joist, and that should EASILY span 12'.

Of course, I imagine you are using treated, so that is a little weaker. https://www.decks.com/how-to/41/deck...ng-and-spacing

Anyways, I would have zero concerns about making a 24" wide and 12' long bridge with 2 2x10s on either side that were bolted together. That should last a lot longer than you need it to. If you bolt/glue two pieces together, consider putting a joist protector on the top to keep water out from between the two members. Like https://www.amazon.com/Grace-Vycor-P...dDbGljaz10cnVl.

Awesome, thanks for that. I'll be buying the word this weekend, so good timing.

[JerseyDave]

This is apparently a concept Dave cannot quite grasp. Only certain people can have fun in his world.

Creating flat, featureless, side walks in dirt make riding not fun. For anyone. Why are you making the trail a road? Just go ride on a dirt road. In my area, every project is an opportunity to build out interesting trail networks. Instead it's generic, flat, featurless, eroding, brake bumped shitty flow trail over and over and over. It's a farce. Often time a waste of tens of thousands of dollar of public money. Frankly, it's offensive when you look at our state/region and the list of things we don't have $ for.

Not at all surprised the ECRC Circle-jerk feels compelled to chime in.

I think the volunteers could have solved those problems in a more creative way, resulting in a tread the offers a more interesting experience to all riders. It is possible to build trail that is interesting for people who suck at riding bikes, and people who are good at it. Not just another smooth, banked, boring section of trail and a wasted opportunity. People volunteering is awesome. For what ever reason, it seems every fix, every solution now anywhere is flat, smooth, in-sloped. It's fucking boring man and if you're honest, you'll admit it.

[jackstraw]

Creating flat, featureless, side walks in dirt make riding not fun. For anyone.

You are so wrong. You cannot speak for everyone. WTF? Think about it.

I get it's not for you and no so much for me either, but.....I don't need to go on.

[JerseyDave]

.....I don't need to go on.

Clearly, you do. We are watching MTB go through the same gentrification the skiing did so lazy, unfit, unskilled humans can have access if they spend enough. All things for everyone....run, run away.

[jackstraw]

Says the guy who needs oversized fat skis for his son.

Put him and yourself on old straight skis and watch your abilities improve instead those fat things that turn themselves.

[JerseyDave]

Says the guy who needs oversized fat skis for his son.

Put him and yourself on old straight skis and watch your abilities improve instead those fat things that turn themselves.

On prepared surfaces we ski skinny. I'm on some old karhu grizzlies or something. My kids on leased skis. I've run fat tires for ever too. My evil imperial had gazzolodi 3.0 on them in 2001. The ski equivalent of what's happening to MTB trails can be viewed as what happened to Nose Dive. There is some very passionate writing about that from back in the 40's. Now look at it, and that place. Should have listened, now where doing it again....for the same reason......$ for a few.

Nose Dive in 1939. Scroll down. https://mmsca.org/wp-content/uploads...ume-5-No-5.pdf

Nose Dive in 1947. The lift goes in. https://mmsca.org/wp-content/uploads...me-14-No-1.pdf

Then in 1950, Art Goodrich, Nathaniel Goodrich's (First Person to ski Mt. Mansfield) son, who coached Norwich University to a National Championship in the 30's wrote about Nose Dive. https://mmsca.org/wp-content/uploads...me-16-No-2.pdf

Art also wrote a piece called Powder is Perfection way back. https://mmsca.org/wp-content/uploads...ume-6-No-3.pdf

[Boreas]

Idk, I rode Florence and Bears today plus others, had a fucking blast. As a person that broke five vertebrae 2.5 months ago, not only am I stoked to be walking, I’m pretty damn joyous about being in the woods. You have to admit there’s something different and rewarding about riding through the woods as opposed to a dirt road even if the woods are easy.

[jackstraw]

Idk, I rode Florence and Bears today plus others, had a fucking blast. As a person that broke five vertebrae 2.5 months ago, not only am I stoked to be walking, I’m pretty damn joyous about being in the woods. You have to admit there’s something different and rewarding about riding through the woods as opposed to a dirt road even if the woods are easy.

Great news! Good for you. Keep it going!

[El Kanone]

Yeah stoked for you Boreas


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Andeh]

It hasn't started raining here yet, but while I'm dreaming that it will, I'm also aware of a few spots on our local trails that had awful natural drainage last year.

How do people add drainage to trails (traverses / bench cuts) where:
1) there's no natural rock
2) it's not possible to haul in artificial drainage material (drain pipes, gravel)

I was thinking we could take a bunch of downed small trees / logs (~3"-5" dia), cut them in lengths slightly longer than the width of the trail, and embed them perpendicular to the trail. I would think that surface runoff will flush out silt in between the logs.

[grskier]

It hasn't started raining here yet, but while I'm dreaming that it will, I'm also aware of a few spots on our local trails that had awful natural drainage last year.

How do people add drainage to trails (traverses / bench cuts) where:
1) there's no natural rock
2) it's not possible to haul in artificial drainage material (drain pipes, gravel)

I was thinking we could take a bunch of downed small trees / logs (~3"-5" dia), cut them in lengths slightly longer than the width of the trail, and embed them perpendicular to the trail. I would think that surface runoff will flush out silt in between the logs.

Depends on what the sides of the trails look like. You could also just hoe in a couple of 'curb' cuts to allow it to flow off to the side consistently.

[toast2266]

It hasn't started raining here yet, but while I'm dreaming that it will, I'm also aware of a few spots on our local trails that had awful natural drainage last year.

How do people add drainage to trails (traverses / bench cuts) where:
1) there's no natural rock
2) it's not possible to haul in artificial drainage material (drain pipes, gravel)

I was thinking we could take a bunch of downed small trees / logs (~3"-5" dia), cut them in lengths slightly longer than the width of the trail, and embed them perpendicular to the trail. I would think that surface runoff will flush out silt in between the logs.

Downside of what you're describing is 1) diagonal wood check dams are slippery as shit in the wet, 2) they silt up and need to be cleaned out every couple of years, and 3) eventually they'll rot out.

I prefer to just outslope the trail in intelligent locations. But if that doesn't really work for whatever reason, a dirt waterbar / roller works well. Takes some effort to build, but if built right, it rides well and probably won't silt up quite as quickly as a wood water bar.

[Andeh]

I'll try and get some photos next time I ride it in the day time.

The easier one (where a water bar will probably work, but just need frequent muck-outs) is right after a catch berm. Water tends to accumulate in a section of trail towards the end of the catch berm.

The harder one is a traverse right above a vertical fire road cut, which is needed to get you over to a spot where you can drop down onto the road. The traverse bench is in clayey soil, and is at the bottom of a long, wide drainage, so all the water from the slope gets channeled to the area, and then turns the bench into 3" deep sticky mud.