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  1. #226
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    2,213
    Quote Originally Posted by jackstraw View Post
    Dan, are you referring to 'pay to play' private or is this state, county, blm, etc paying out of pocket? I can see a gov entity just getting it done and maybe enhancing with the next budget...or not.
    Every job I worked on as a pro was limited by budget. Not once did the state or any bike club say, "Build us the most awesome trail you could." Building cool shit is obviously more expensive. I think this is at the heart of the anti-flow trail sentiment that is brewing back here in the east. In reality the ONLY reason trail builders back east went to excavators is because hand building was not cost effective. For the last 10 years now they have been trying to figure out how to make excavator trail look like hand built trail. Some are getting close.

    The irony for me is their layouts now are for 100 percent benched trail. In many locations if they selectively benched to get from zone to zone, and hand built old school trail where they could they would save tons of $ and time. Instead a large percentage of trail is way overbuilt for the machine and then reverts back to tighter lines.

    A better approach IMO would be to machine bench the obvious sections, and under build everything else. Let the tires do the finish work and as they uncover the problem areas as indicated by trail degradation you "build out" the final solution. This model best fits the annual funding model we see here with clubs getting annual grants or annual funds from membership.

    100% machine built for 100% of new trail is a scam being perpetrated on the State and the State Org. as well as the riders.
    $.02
    Stoke to off-set the rant. Rock work done with no tools. 100% flesh on stone. When life gives you a pile of stones.....make the trail stoned.
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  2. #227
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    cow hampshire
    Posts
    4,331
    I've never ridden a machine made trail. I have an interest, but clearly not much of one because I haven't done it yet. I prefer challenging tech with a mix of flow where the terrain gives it to you. At the same time, I think these dirt sidewalks have their place as it will get more people out biking which will potentially contribute to a healthier, happier society and drive the economy of bike shops and the sales Reps on this board.

  3. #228
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    North Vancouver/Whistler
    Posts
    11,307
    Quote Originally Posted by mtnjam View Post
    You guys and gals up in BC do such nice work on trails, be it riding or hiking. Wish we could get that kind of work done down here in the states without the constant bickering of who is going to maintain it and needing to do all sorts of EIS, mind you the motorized trails and logging/mining/development industry have no problem putting a dozer blade to a hillside without much thought.
    There's a ton of work in getting the OK for sanctioned trail very like the US process which we don't talk about much cos it's really boring and tedious. Kootenayskier is intimately familiar with this

    Provincial, sometimes federal, sometimes private, sometimes municipal and increasingly often times First Nation.

    Although thank ullr we don't have to deal with the US laws re "mechanized" prohibitions. It's motorized vs non-motorized here

  4. #229
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Hell Track
    Posts
    8,578
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    Every job I worked on as a pro was limited by budget. Not once did the state or any bike club say, "Build us the most awesome trail you could." Building cool shit is obviously more expensive. I think this is at the heart of the anti-flow trail sentiment that is brewing back here in the east. In reality the ONLY reason trail builders back east went to excavators is because hand building was not cost effective. For the last 10 years now they have been trying to figure out how to make excavator trail look like hand built trail. Some are getting close.

    The irony for me is their layouts now are for 100 percent benched trail. In many locations if they selectively benched to get from zone to zone, and hand built old school trail where they could they would save tons of $ and time. Instead a large percentage of trail is way overbuilt for the machine and then reverts back to tighter lines.

    A better approach IMO would be to machine bench the obvious sections, and under build everything else. Let the tires do the finish work and as they uncover the problem areas as indicated by trail degradation you "build out" the final solution. This model best fits the annual funding model we see here with clubs getting annual grants or annual funds from membership.

    100% machine built for 100% of new trail is a scam being perpetrated on the State and the State Org. as well as the riders.
    $.02
    Stoke to off-set the rant. Rock work done with no tools. 100% flesh on stone. When life gives you a pile of stones.....make the trail stoned.
    That's a good rant.

    Machine built trail is becoming so ubiquitous around here, the hand built option is barely even considered when new trails are being built. And I'm concerned that some of the funding sources and grants are going to start expecting the mile / dollar figures that are really only possible with a fairly uninteresting trail, built by a machine. Which sucks.

    There are some guys that are getting pretty good with their machines, and they would certainly argue that they can build something that's essentially the same as a hand built trail. But as a rider, I heartily disagree with them.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

  5. #230
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Rossland BC
    Posts
    1,091
    Iíve been building single-track with hand built trail crews for the past 18 years. Itís never occurred to me that the measure of success for trail building was how inexpensively you could build a section of trail, rather the subjective quality of the experience of the people who use them. Hand building enables maximum creative expression, without the unavoidable limitation of a machine having to build a mini-road for its own passage.

  6. #231
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    North Vancouver/Whistler
    Posts
    11,307
    Forest bathing

  7. #232
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Livingston, MT
    Posts
    1,157
    Quote Originally Posted by kootenayskier View Post
    Various projects we're working on around Rossland.
    Attachment 243114
    Attachment 243115Attachment 243116Attachment 243117
    Kootenayskier, how many people on your typical hand crew?
    Curious how it compares to the contract builders that typically operate for USFS projects. Contracts go for so little for the FS it usually leaves room for 2-3 people and a machine, thus the cheap and boring machine built crap. Shit, on the Gallatin they have just been doing hourly machine work and no one even does finish work. Iíve started to think we need a full time non profit professional trail crew around here, but just wishful thinking...
    Beautiful work, BTW!


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

  8. #233
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    North Vancouver/Whistler
    Posts
    11,307
    Reloaming trails

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  9. #234
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    North Vancouver/Whistler
    Posts
    11,307
    Keeping things tidy

  10. #235
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Rossland BC
    Posts
    1,091
    Quote Originally Posted by hick View Post
    Kootenayskier, how many people on your typical hand crew?
    Curious how it compares to the contract builders that typically operate for USFS projects. Contracts go for so little for the FS it usually leaves room for 2-3 people and a machine, thus the cheap and boring machine built crap. Shit, on the Gallatin they have just been doing hourly machine work and no one even does finish work. Iíve started to think we need a full time non profit professional trail crew around here, but just wishful thinking...
    Beautiful work, BTW!


    Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums
    Iím running two crews of 3, full time from May through October. All keen guys, hand building (and maintaining) trail for $16-$19 p/h. Weíre building new high quality, hand-built singletrack for between $15,000 and $20,000 per km, in steep, rocky, forested terrain.

  11. #236
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Rossland BC
    Posts
    1,091
    More Pics.
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  12. #237
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    North Vancouver/Whistler
    Posts
    11,307
    Stu in that 3rd pic down how did you keep the soil on the side looking so undisturbed? Revegetate? Or is that sometime later. I've been trying to work on that and any tips are useful

  13. #238
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Rossland BC
    Posts
    1,091
    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Stu in that 3rd pic down how did you keep the soil on the side looking so undisturbed? Revegetate? Or is that sometime later. I've been trying to work on that and any tips are useful
    No real tricks, just the effort to do so. I encourage our crews to broadcast debris from trail construction as far and unobtrusively as possible. They sometimes do this well, other times not. If itís spread thinly, like here, a couple of months of growth hides everything.

  14. #239
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Missoula
    Posts
    1,331
    New trail at Marshall is coming along pretty well



    Plus they had beer and tacos up there today

  15. #240
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Hell Track
    Posts
    8,578
    Made a sketchy jump somewhat less sketchy.




  16. #241
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    grapes and grapes
    Posts
    3,194
    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Keeping things tidy
    all those wet roots are giving me a hard-on.
    "Climb the mountains and get their good tidings. The winds will blow their freshness into you, and the storms, their energy. Your cares and tensions will drop away like the leaves of Autumn." --John Muir

    "welcome to the hacienda, asshole." --s.p.c.

  17. #242
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    In a parallel universe
    Posts
    4,353
    Some dig stoke lulz from the guys at Transition...

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/6-flav...ers-video.html

  18. #243
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Hell Track
    Posts
    8,578
    Quote Originally Posted by ACH View Post
    Some dig stoke lulz from the guys at Transition...

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/6-flav...ers-video.html
    heh. Lopes.

  19. #244
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    809
    Quote Originally Posted by ACH View Post
    Some dig stoke lulz from the guys at Transition...

    https://www.pinkbike.com/news/6-flav...ers-video.html
    Its just so dead on IME haha. IDK if its the local connection, but i really, really like every video that Transition puts out these days.

  20. #245
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    CA
    Posts
    1,798
    That Tranny vid is hilarious.

    Trying to mould some next gen builders.



    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    sproing!

    FS: crampons, lightweight winter down sleeping bag, and stuff https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...ost?highlight=

  21. #246
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    tetons
    Posts
    6,665
    ^ freaking adorable
    i love it that around here they hire local high school kids for summer trail work. such a good character building experience!
    and of course I esp love seeing my fellow outdoor loving little ladies enjoying their time out there
    skid luxury

  22. #247
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    cow hampshire
    Posts
    4,331
    Quote Originally Posted by meter-man View Post
    That Tranny vid is hilarious.

    Trying to mould some next gen builders.



    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


    It's finally been good build weather. Haven't stumbled upon a hornet's nest yet this year...which is nice.

  23. #248
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,213
    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Keeping things tidy
    I'm curious why you guys are replacing displaced organic material with more organic material?

    For me, once traffic displaces the duff it's time to refill with good dirt that will compact and resist the erosion a second time. Totally understand different solutions for different locations but it seems to me that this will be a never ending cycle and a more durable fix would be a better idea?

  24. #249
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    809
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveVt View Post
    I'm curious why you guys are replacing displaced organic material with more organic material?

    For me, once traffic displaces the duff it's time to refill with good dirt that will compact and resist the erosion a second time. Totally understand different solutions for different locations but it seems to me that this will be a never ending cycle and a more durable fix would be a better idea?
    My guess is that this is not a high use trail so there is no need to put in a highly durable tread. Loam (duff) is soooo much nicer to ride, and easier to source haha, so why not use that?
    Last edited by californiagrown; 10-19-2018 at 12:22 PM.

  25. #250
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    2,213
    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    My guess is that this is not a high use trail so there is no need to put in a highly durable tread. Loam (duff) is soooo much nicer to ride, and easier to source haha, so why not use that?
    Out here in the east where we have the leaves that drop every year most legit trails networks leaf blow the trails. I let the leaves replenish the organic layer that is the first material displaced by use. It goes a long way in keeping the trails fresh and smooth-rolling as there are when they are first born so I do appreciate how it can help. The leaf-layer is free for us though, no labor required it just falls from the sky. Seems silly to blow it off if there is a high enough level of traffic to keep the trails well defined.

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