"NO, but we can order that for you"

[Benny Profane]

I've been using a shop somewhat near me that offers excellent service, but, I'm always amazed at their stock on hand. These guys are totally committed to having a ton of shit under their roof (they have three buildings out back). Bikes and Ski stuff is well stocked, but, they also have upwards to a hundred Kayaks on the property! In Ct.! And they don't have an internet presence besides a fairly generic web site - no shopping. They've been around a while, too, and seem to be doing well.
http://www.outdoorsports.com
That said, I almost fell over when I went in a few weeks ago with a really fucked up back wheel from a broken spoke (Mavic Ksyrium road wheels), which I had bought there last year and they carry today. Mavic has a great extended warranty program that the dealer gets compensated for, so, I was shocked to hear the head mechanic say "and we'll have to order a spoke". WTF?, I almost blurted out. A fucking spoke? Fortunately, he found one in a cabinet somewhere, and I had my bike back in 24 hours, but, still.

[L7]

The modern consumer and conventional retail are at a crossroad and it's riddled with potholes...

I would say that sums it up nicely and the navigation is the trick. Part of that navigation can be blowing off steam after a rough day (somewhere other than with a customer) so you can go back and paste the smile on again the next day.

[rideit]

I've been using a shop somewhat near me that offers excellent service, but, I'm always amazed at their stock on hand. These guys are totally committed to having a ton of shit under their roof (they have three buildings out back). Bikes and Ski stuff is well stocked, but, they also have upwards to a hundred Kayaks on the property! In Ct.! And they don't have an internet presence besides a fairly generic web site - no shopping. They've been around a while, too, and seem to be doing well.
http://www.outdoorsports.com
That said, I almost fell over when I went in a few weeks ago with a really fucked up back wheel from a broken spoke (Mavic Ksyrium road wheels), which I had bought there last year and they carry today. Mavic has a great extended warranty program that the dealer gets compensated for, so, I was shocked to hear the head mechanic say "and we'll have to order a spoke". WTF?, I almost blurted out. A fucking spoke? Fortunately, he found one in a cabinet somewhere, and I had my bike back in 24 hours, but, still.

My friend, you have NO idea how infuriating it is to BE a Mavic dealer.
PITA x 3.
What were you expecting...a new wheel, when all it needed was a spoke?
Confuzled here.

[rideit]

I'm shocked you haven't detailed the inventory in glorious jpeg's and multiple posts.

Don't tempt me.
Because then you would have to snidely comment on each one, which would be far more useful.

[XXX-er]

.. I had $400 burning a hole in my pocket and sure would have liked to throw down for a dropper post or new helmet, but I guess I'll hold off.

what actualy occured is Buddy saved you 400$ which is probably better saved for something that you actualy need that puts your bike completely out of commision, its a common thing to see a rider spend a bunch of money upgrading something that didn't need it, next week his fork shits the bed so buddy is broke ...and out for half a season

but what some folks in this thread seem to be saying is they/you/we are entitled

IMO you are entitled to nothing but the deal you find wherever that is

[Benny Profane]

My friend, you have NO idea how infuriating it is to BE a Mavic dealer.
PITA x 3.
What were you expecting...a new wheel, when all it needed was a spoke?
Confuzled here.

No, man. I expected them to have a spoke in stock. A spoke.

And, yeah, I'll bet it's fucking infuriating. That's a sweet deal. Three years is a LOT of miles and punishment. The roads in Westchester are particularly ratty these days.
I ordered another pair to put on my new bike I'm having built.

[rideit]

Mavic has, like, 50 different proprietary spoke sizes...but yeah, for one as ubiquitous as a kyserium, they should....
As for infuriating, I just mean as a company. High minimum orders, takes them a week to call back, and you are lucky if you get your orders within the season you ordered them. Seriously, I have ordered a set of replacement spokes from them that took 6 weeks to arrive. Customers are long gone by then.
But their rims flat out rule, period.

[Benny Profane]

Are they French?

[rideit]

Oui, bien Sur.
but they occasionally ship out of Mass., when and if they feel like it.

[Benny Profane]

Ah, bon. That explains a lot.

[gravitylover]

Ha! Mavic spoke in stock. Very few shops would have that. They come in either 3 or 10 packs and they're silly expensive. One of the reasons we bailed on them a few years ago. Rideit, they've actually gotten a little bit easier to deal with and they tend to ship stuff out the same day or next after you call but they're still a pita in many respects. Whenever we get a customer that trashes a Mavic wheel we break it down and save the spokes so we can take care of people quickly and at a reasonable price.

L7 - For the most part I really do still enjoy what I do but it has gotten difficult. I'm actually glad we aren't a big mt shop because so many of the changes the last few years have been there but the last 2 1/2 years road has gotten just about as challenging. For example, a shop can buy Di2 and Ui2 bikes and drivetrains and sell them but we can't get different wire looms or reprogram the ecu from Shimano unless we have a tech who has been certified by Shimano and that's a painful process. We paid for our best guy to get the certs but if we lose him we have to go through it again. It's not the shop that gets the certs it's the tech and he takes it with him if he leaves. IOW don't go getting a Di kit for yourself online and expect your local shop to be able to install and program it properly if they don't have a certified tech.

Jethro - Don't get me going on internet sales tax, that's whole other can of worms. At least Amazon voluntarily collects sales taxes for most states now and the will be fully compliant before anybody else.

The whole showrooming thing is one of the biggest problems we all, not just bike/sport shops, face now. At my store we have a very generous return policy, 30 days love it or leave it, and it usually is the difference between making a sale or not. In the last few months we have had a few people take advantage of it though and order something then tell us after it comes in that they will finalize the purchase if we will meet so and so's online price. We are reconsidering the policy but can't convince ourselves to eliminate it yet.

So much more I want to say...

[jfost]

I have such mixed feelings about this - in theory, there will always be a need for local shops that have great product and helpful sales staff etc. but boy are there challenges as you all have stated... the thing is, should we seek to artificially prop up shops that don't make it just because we feel nostalgic for years gone by? The shop used to deliver information along with a product matching specific needs. Now that many consumers are more informed from external sources, some of the "value" is gone from the transaction. Why should I pay for information that I already have? Not saying it is right, because you can argue that the mfgs are complicit in killing off local shops by offering information direct-to-consumer, but it is what it is... To be sure, there are still many UNinformed consumers, and I believe that is where the opportunity lies. I'm never going to walk into a ski shop and drop full retail on new boots/bindings/skis etc... just like everyone here, but what percent of the bottom line are customers like the typical TGR gear geek?

[Hugh Conway]

Don't tempt me.
Because then you would have to snidely comment on each one, which would be far more useful.

If I snidely commented on every one of your useless self-promotional posts I'd have almost twice as many posts as I do. Don't challenge me. Besides, you forgot to mention you live in Jackson

so, basically, we've round tripped to bike/ski shops being a suckers ploy for broheim to be cool. Useless expensive junkets are great, stocking parts for customers is to much money.

[rideit]

Here's the difference, Ceej...people actually like the stuff I make and post about....you, otoh....smug is a four letter word, brah!

[L7]

L7 - For the most part I really do still enjoy what I do but it has gotten difficult. I'm actually glad we aren't a big mt shop because so many of the changes the last few years have been there but the last 2 1/2 years road has gotten just about as challenging. For example, a shop can buy Di2 and Ui2 bikes and drivetrains and sell them but we can't get different wire looms or reprogram the ecu from Shimano unless we have a tech who has been certified by Shimano and that's a painful process. We paid for our best guy to get the certs but if we lose him we have to go through it again. It's not the shop that gets the certs it's the tech and he takes it with him if he leaves. IOW don't go getting a Di kit for yourself online and expect your local shop to be able to install and program it properly if they don't have a certified tech.

Hmmm never thought of that. So while the consumer/ retail crossroads are riddled with potholes the manufacturers are navigating you in a direction that isn't too functional either. I'm not even slightly sold on the point of electronic shifting and even less so now. Just one more way for marketers to handcuff you to their product (both consumers and retailers). Doesn't sound like Shimano thought through the impact on their retail chain very well.

[L7]

Mavic although originally french is now part of the Amer group. Just saying.

[DoWork]

Did I insult the shop monkey? Boo hoo! Poor wittle shop monkey, standing up for shop monkeys everywhere.

No I was making fun of your sequence of events and chain of logic.



Decide to spend more money than needed and deal with stoned morons for no reason ---> get fucked ---> end up doing it yourself and saving money



I mean, you really opened yourself up there. Also, I am not a shop monkey- I am the guy who just strolls in every few weeks with heady beer and cash and core shots hoping to get them base welded and minimally ground today while I'm at work. I do hope that your false identification made you feel better though, I mean I must be a stupid loser if I am pointing out that you did a silly thing right?


Lesson learned: If you can, do your own work. If you choose to be lazy and walk into strange shops that don't give a damn, prepare to get fucked with. Seems pretty simple to me.

Or I guess you could just start THAT thread again. That's always cool too.

[Timberridge]

There's an antidote to bike shops and ski shops not having things like common parts in stock, or lobbing an attitude: Become a fucking expert in ordering and fixing your own shit.**

**Some additional positives:
- I can actually tell what is shit and what is quality when I do buy something... and there is a lot of shit out there
- I know what a "good" price is if I ever walk into the shop
- I make everything I buy as simple as possible because the more complicated it is, means it breaks more often and I can't fix it

Some negatives:
-My friends always want me to fix their shit
-Adjusting a 10 speed rear derailleur still mystifies me so I ride single speed

I actually rode with a guy a few weeks ago that had no idea you could adjust the cleat retention on a pedal. He and his $3000 bike kept falling over because he could not release his foot. He claimed this happened after he took his bike in for the "lifetime" free tune up and he hadn't had the time to take the bike back and have them check it.

I don't feel bad for the bike shops or ski shops because I buy online and do my own work. Because as long as there are dentists buying crapon fiber bikes and e-derailleurs, they'll need bike shops. And bike shops need them. After all, guys like me are horrible customers.

[Name Redacted]

No I was making fun of your sequence of events and chain of logic.



Decide to spend more money than needed and deal with stoned morons for no reason ---> get fucked ---> end up doing it yourself and saving money



I mean, you really opened yourself up there. Also, I am not a shop monkey- I am the guy who just strolls in every few weeks with heady beer and cash and core shots hoping to get them base welded and minimally ground today while I'm at work. I do hope that your false identification made you feel better though, I mean I must be a stupid loser if I am pointing out that you did a silly thing right?


Lesson learned: If you can, do your own work. If you choose to be lazy and walk into strange shops that don't give a damn, prepare to get fucked with. Seems pretty simple to me.

Or I guess you could just start THAT thread again. That's always cool too.

See, we are on the same page. I agree whole heartedly. This shop actually doesn't suck, I know the owners and a few of the employees, none of whom were working on the day in question but whatever. I was being lazy and saying fuck it, I want to just walk in, throw down some cash for some shiny new gear and walk out. I'm not bitching about the price at all. If I want, I can get a deal, pull a few strings, make it happen, but yeah. I was being lazy. And I have no shortage of beer to trade for gear, I am well versed in the shop barter economy, and I have been on both sides of that ball.

I also do my own work on my bike and boards when I can, 9 outta 10 times, I even have a friend with a wintersteiger so I can do my own base welds, just like the good old days when I worked in a shop myself. Rarely go to a shop for bike work. Boards, I get that for beer. But you gotta buy the stuff somewhere, and hey, I'll give a B&M shop my business if they have what I need for a reasonable price.

And they guys who "put their time in" hanging out at the shop and making buddies with the staff so they can get better treatment. That's kinda sad don't you think? Seriously? Hanging out with a bunch of dudes, laughing at their jokes, buying them presents, so you can get a sweet deal on your next spandex purchase? Yeah, not gonna go there. Got better things to do with my time.

The point here is this: If shops want to stay in business these days they need to stock basic items that people actually need, not just $3k bikes and lycra in between. I felt like ranting in the original post because this kind of thing happens frequently at a lot of shops, even good ones. I wasn't looking for anything out of the ordinary, as I stated, I was looking for basic items which I feel any bike shop should have in stock, and it's not even that, it's that they offered to order it out of a catalog, sell it to me for full retail, then not allow me to return it if I don't like it. Shitty thing is, as others have mentioned, you have them order something, and decide it's not for you, you can't return the special order.

I'm not looking to start a Neptune thread, I like this particular shop, it's better than most in my area. Maybe they just don't have a lot in stock for the season yet. Just saying, the whole special order thing is bs for items that the shop should have in stock anyway. Now, I need a new specialized part, sure, order it up, but if I'm looking for basic shit, just say, "no, we ain't got it, try the guys down the street".

[Conundrum]

And they guys who "put their time in" hanging out at the shop and making buddies with the staff so they can get better treatment. That's kinda sad don't you think? Seriously? Hanging out with a bunch of dudes, laughing at their jokes, buying them presents, so you can get a sweet deal on your next spandex purchase? Yeah, not gonna go there. Got better things to do with my time.

Since you've got better things to do with your time, might as well not read the following...

I think you are missing the point. People that make friends or give gifts to have strings attached are dooshers. If you see your shop guy out at a bar, no harm in saying hi and having a beer with them. Did that recently with the guy who fits my ski boots. Guess what-after talking to him outside of a busy shop, turns out he's a cool guy and we're probably going to get a bike ride in sometime.

I have clients that send me a bottle just cause they like to say thanks once in awhile and in my industry, the price I charge is legislated so I can't give a bro-form to say you're welcome. I occasionally drop coffee by my favorite bike guy cause he's a good guy. I don't expect anything in return. Just people being nice people. There's no reason to look at shop guys as some sub-standard life form. Shop guys are not out to get you...just like anything, there's good ones and bad ones.

[Name Redacted]

Since you've got better things to do with your time, might as well not read the following...

I think you are missing the point. People that make friends or give gifts to have strings attached are dooshers. If you see your shop guy out at a bar, no harm in saying hi and having a beer with them. Did that recently with the guy who fits my ski boots. Guess what-after talking to him outside of a busy shop, turns out he's a cool guy and we're probably going to get a bike ride in sometime.

I have clients that send me a bottle just cause they like to say thanks once in awhile and in my industry, the price I charge is legislated so I can't give a bro-form to say you're welcome. I occasionally drop coffee by my favorite bike guy cause he's a good guy. I don't expect anything in return. Just people being nice people. There's no reason to look at shop guys as some sub-standard life form. Shop guys are not out to get you...just like anything, there's good ones and bad ones.

Yeah, not the point of the thread or that post. I've got plenty of friends who work in shops, and it's not me against them. Don't see them as a sub standard life form and trust me, beer is given out liberally to many. I agree, there are good ones and bad ones, and I'm pretty good at figuring that out pretty quickly.

[Wired2theT]

I work at a shop and I've always been one to support local businesses when I can but not at the expense of paying more than I can online or elsewhere. Small shops that have survived know that they have to find ways to compete with the big guys. Most of the customers I see don't have a clue about ski gear, they'll just say something like, "I want some K2's because I rented a pair of those once that I liked."

The ski industry relies on people with money willing to shell out for new gear, ski in ski out condos, and $100+ lift tickets per day. Not guys who swap used gear, drink PBR in the parking lot and refuse to ride a lift or have a cheap season pass (relative to day passes). Most the people that make it possible for us to enjoy the sport we love have never even heard of TGR and appreciate the guidance from informed shops.

So I believe there will always be a need for shops, though it is tough for them to adapt to the world of online powerhouses. If you are an informed shopper that doesn't need the guidance, you don't have to go to a shop. Shops would love to carry everything that people come in for, but simply can't. They don't deal in the volume of the big guys so they seek items with longer margins and companies that give them better discounts and terms. Its a business and by offering to order something for you its better than just saying, "No, I can't help you." Though I hate doing it, it should be offered. But, I'm happy being perfectly transparent about the disadvantages of special orders vs. ordering it themselves, as long as my boss isn't around of course. Special orders are probably more of a pain for shops than for the consumer and they normally yield a much smaller return.

[XXX-er]

A pretty realistic birds eye view ^^ of how it is

I think the shop thing will self regulate some will die hell some web businesses will die just the same as businesses have always died off but face it the shop is no longer the only game in town so it has to do something different or die some of that will be carrying less inventory

Me I spread my money around town I pay a little extra so there IS a town but I do spend some money on the web and I don't mind putting up with the money crowds at xmas/spring break for those days when there are more staff on the hill than paying customers

[Hugh Conway]

A pretty realistic birds eye view ^^ of how it is

The dude with lots of money to burn that's never heard of the internet is a dying breed for skiing. I guess there's still some in bicycling, but here they go to the core wrencher shop or the dojo. The "informed" shop monkey is dying to and both are as clued in as rideit thinking everyone loves him just because there's a fatter chick he can point to at the bar.

[Wired2theT]

Hugh, obviously they've heard of the internet and are probably aware there are better deals to be had. They simply don't have the time or the patience to wade through all the bullshit out there. How many big businesses advertise their customer service and the concept of talking to an actual person rather than some voice automated service.

True there are plenty of uninformed shop kids out there and I don't claim to know it all but being able simplify the process for people and explain that auto turn rocker is the same shit as all terrain rocker or whatever label companies put on it (hell most of em don't know what rocker is). Plenty of people come in because they are even more confused after searching around online. Also not mentioned is the people that will come in to consult people like myself, with the sole intention of going home and ordering it online. In that case the shop is offering a valuable service with absolutely no reward.

More on that note is the value of the shop being able to set up or service the equipment. People buy shit online and realize that bindings don't come on the skis ready for your boot, or have bought skis and ask you to set up the bindings without even having boots (I figured I would just rent boots). I have no problem charging those people a hefty fee to mount it up, because that price is worth it to them. No exactly paper template people if you know what I'm saying. But, I am much happier being able to set up somebodies skis they bought from us for free, even if they came in today and need them right now because they're about to head to the mountains.

I don't know shit about bikes, that's why I talk to my couple friends that work at bike shops. When I have considered buying a decent bike, I had no fucking clue what I was looking at online with little guidance from bike forums. My friends can help me decide what features or components are worth spending the money on, for my individual applications (I'm learning) as opposed to some magazine or internet article saying, "this is the ski of the year." Really? For who? For what conditions? Many people don't need the best one, but don't want the cheapest either. You help them decide make most sense for them.

There's value in the service shops provide and they should be treated like any other business. People vote with dollars, if they would rather spend the money elsewhere do it. It is the businesses job to convince them to spend with them or they face the consequences of ceasing to exist. Its the concerns of the original poster that I'm more interested in addressing. Some people will go online and bitch about those problems. More rational people will just find someone else that is able to offer them the service or product they desire.