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  1. #426
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    blah blah blah blah blah, all i said is i think more time should be spent on CPR training in a WFR.

    rog

  2. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by icelanticskier View Post
    blah blah blah blah blah, all i said is i think more time should be spent on CPR training in a WFR.

    rog
    No, you claimed CPR resuscitation rates are low because people don't take long enough to learn the skill. Your opinion is not supported by empirical evidence and when that was pointed out to you, you got butthurt.


    EDIT: FWIW my last WFR spent several additional hours on CPR beyond AHA requirements.

  3. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by icelanticskier View Post
    blah blah blah blah blah, all i said is i think more time should be spent on CPR training in a WFR.

    rog
    You want 2-3 days spent on cpr instead of 4-5 hours. Your rationale is that poor cpr outcomes are due to insufficient training. The evidence is counter to your rationale. Also, healthcare provider cpr classes (what doctors, nurses, paramedics, emts do) are 1 day or less. Therefor following your opinion would waste WFR students' time; it would be better spent on other subjects.

    You could argue that WFR students should have to show up with a healthcare provider CPR card. CPR is a conceptually and practically simple operation by design. More than a day is overkill.

    What does that have to do with avalanches?

    Sent from my DROID4 using TGR Forums
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  4. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinner View Post
    No, you claimed CPR resuscitation rates are low because people don't take long enough to learn the skill. Your opinion is not supported by empirical evidence and when that was pointed out to you, you got butthurt.


    EDIT: FWIW my last WFR spent several additional hours on CPR beyond AHA requirements.
    not butthurt. 2/3 days was a stretch. 1 full day should be minimum. a few hours seemed like a rushed brush through. CPR may not save many lives, but being knowledged and thoroughly/efficiently trained could make the difference from saving a life or not.

    rog

  5. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    .
    What does that have to do with avalanches?
    everything

    rog

  6. #431
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    Stolen from my post on the 4 hour burial thread: "There have been reports from Europe--rare--of survival after the prolonged burial of victims who were pulseless and not breathing. These victims had air pockets and their hearts stopped beating because of cold. They were transported cold to hospitals where they were rewarmed on a heart lung machine--the kind used to do open heart surgery. A quote from one of the articles: " Pulseless victims with a patent airway and a core temperature<32C should receive uninterrupted cardiopulmonary resuscitation and be transported to a hospital with extracorporeal rewarming facilities." If the airway is free of snow one can assume that they did not die from asphyxia. Of course most of the patients who meet these criteria have died of trauma, not hypothermia, but extraordinary efforts seem warranted in this young, otherwise healthy population."

    Perhaps what is needed is more training for wilderness first responders in identifying avalanche victims who are apparently dead who might be saved by transport and rewarming in a hospital. Is anyone aware of any such saves in North America? Maybe it's not a practical option, given that we don't have the organized helicopter rescue system common in the Alps.

  7. #432
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    Quote Originally Posted by icelanticskier View Post
    not butthurt. 2/3 days was a stretch. 1 full day should be minimum. a few hours seemed like a rushed brush through. CPR may not save many lives, but being knowledged and thoroughly/efficiently trained could make the difference from saving a life or not.

    rog
    My BLS "C", healthcare provider, certification only lasts around 3 hrs. If lay persons can't get BLS down in a few hours they surely won't get it in a daylong course, it's not that complicated.

  8. #433
    Hugh Conway Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by old goat View Post
    Perhaps what is needed is more training for wilderness first responders in identifying avalanche victims who are apparently dead who might be saved by transport and rewarming in a hospital. Is anyone aware of any such saves in North America? Maybe it's not a practical option, given that we don't have the organized helicopter rescue system common in the Alps.
    Given the small number of fatalities in North America this would apply to what's the return on time for training?

    Somewhat the same ROI regarding course length. If you are a ski bum with >200 days a season it's different than a cube monkey with 80 days a season or the more likely desk jockey 10 actual BC days in avalanche terrain and avalanche weather (and that's before children and marriage drop their skiing days down to nil)

  9. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by AaronWright View Post
    My BLS "C", healthcare provider, certification only lasts around 3 hrs. If lay persons can't get BLS down in a few hours they surely won't get it in a daylong course, it's not that complicated.
    good point.

    rog

  10. #435
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
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    847
    Originally Posted by old goat

    Perhaps what is needed is more training for wilderness first responders in identifying avalanche victims who are apparently dead who might be saved by transport and rewarming in a hospital. Is anyone aware of any such saves in North America? Maybe it's not a practical option, given that we don't have the organized helicopter rescue system common in the Alps.


    goat .

    I went back to your post and read the literature quote - okay ...

    Very different situations between [ helicopter Rescue in the Alps ] and North America Practices --

    it is also my understanding that most hypothermic resuscitations in North America involve drowning children .


    expecting to be able to resuscitate an adult from asphyxia,,, is beyond medical science .


    The Goal - Our common Goal - Needs to Be avoiding being in an avalanche !

    to this specific tragedy : these guys were caught Hours. before rescurers were aware., and at least one of them was buried approximately Fifteen Feet. ... beyond probe depth...


    my Condolensces to the friends and Families of those - and all - involved .

    Please - Be safe...

    J
    " ... I will do anything to go Skiing ... There Is no pride ... " (Miriam , 2005-2006 epic)

    Dec21, 2016. LittleBigLost :
    " I think about it everyday. It is my reminder to live life to the fullest. I get up early, go to bed late, 'cuz I got shit to do. Like I said, I'm 61. Not going to wait till I'm 81 to do stuff, ...

    Get out there and do stuff!

    Enjoy life to the fullest!!

    See you on the slopes! "

  11. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by skiJ View Post
    Originally Posted by old goat

    Perhaps what is needed is more training for wilderness first responders in identifying avalanche victims who are apparently dead who might be saved by transport and rewarming in a hospital. Is anyone aware of any such saves in North America? Maybe it's not a practical option, given that we don't have the organized helicopter rescue system common in the Alps.


    goat .

    I went back to your post and read the literature quote - okay ...

    Very different situations between [ helicopter Rescue in the Alps ] and North America Practices --

    it is also my understanding that most hypothermic resuscitations in North America involve drowning children .


    expecting to be able to resuscitate an adult from asphyxia,,, is beyond medical science .


    The Goal - Our common Goal - Needs to Be avoiding being in an avalanche !

    to this specific tragedy : these guys were caught Hours. before rescurers were aware., and at least one of them was buried approximately Fifteen Feet. ... beyond probe depth...


    my Condolensces to the friends and Families of those - and all - involved .

    Please - Be safe...

    J
    Agree with all the above. Still--there are helicopters that can be mobilized in the USA--happens all the time for traffic accidents--and reasonable proximity to hospitals with heart lung machines in Denver, SLC, Reno, among other places. It seems worth considering for prolonged burials where core temperature is low enough. Not an issue with someone dead after being dug out in 15 minutes--they obviously did not arrest from hypothermia. But the Loveland Pass victims were buried for a long time. Given the amount of money we spend taking care of old farts like me it seems reasonable to spend it on a twenty something even if the chance of survival is a few percent. (Maybe we should check them for insurance first, though.)

    For anyone interested in the subject here's an excellent article:
    http://www.resuscitationjournal.com/...876-3/fulltext

    The physician who publicized cold water drowning and resuscitation ("you're not dead until you're warm and dead) was Marty Nemiroff at Michigan. As a 3rd year medical student I helped care for his first case at Wayne County General Hospital--a two year old girl who drowned in November and was pronounced dead in the ER after prolonged CPR was unsuccessful. The resident in charge couldn't face the parents and went back into the child's room and she was breathing. She went home intact in 2 weeks. Some cases you never forget.
    Last edited by old goat; 05-14-2013 at 06:45 PM.

  12. #437
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    Nov 2003
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    Today is the fifth anniversary of the accident. For those of us that worked this accident we carry a lot of memories. I'm not surprised that the regular media hasn't mentioned the anniversary since it is "4 - 20 Pot day" in Colorado....
    "True love is much easier to find with a helicopter"

  13. #438
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    Oct 2007
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    RIP, shitty day.

  14. #439
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    Dec 2010
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    Thanks. I look at 4/20 different since that day.

  15. #440
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    Feb 2005
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    11,638
    When ever the word sheep is said around me, I still get the jeebies and goosebumps. Good bump Halstead.

  16. #441
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    Nov 2006
    Location
    colorady
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    1,195
    Bump for RIP. Miss you guys.

  17. #442
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    Nov 2003
    Location
    Colorado
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    RIP, and may peace come to their families, friends and the S&R crew members.
    "True love is much easier to find with a helicopter"

  18. #443
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    2,025
    Had a full meltdown this morning. I hate being an empath. Made some nice turns on Sniktau for the boys today. Trelease recently.


  19. #444
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    8,203
    RIP, glad I was preoccupied too.

    420 was never a big deal for me, till that shitty day.

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