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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dane1 View Post
    I've skied the BD Prime, and Dynafit Green Zzero C and TLT6 P, TLT5 P & Mtn. Plus the Scarpa RS

    105 - Scarpa Maestrale RS
    100 - Dynafit TLT6, Dynafit One PX
    90 - Dynafit TLT5 Performance
    85 - Dynafit TLT5 Mountain, Dynafit Zzero ("Green Machine") CF 4-buckle

    my thoughts FWIW..

    105 - Scarpa Maestrale RS, Dynafit Zzero ("Green Machine") CF 4-buckle
    100 - Dynafit TLT6, Dynafit One PX
    90 - Dynafit TLT5 Performance, BD Prime
    85 - Dynafit TLT5 Mountain,
    Respectfully, there is no way the Green Machine was close to the Maestrale RS. The Green Machine wasn't as stiff as the TLT5P. IIRC there was discussion in the earlier thread about the Green Machine and where it was in the scheme of things. Will update the list to include the Prime.

  2. #77
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    Skied them both the same year. The Green Machine on a 138 Pure, Aspect and Lo5 a lot. Don't own the GM , 5P or Prime now but still own the RS and the rest of them. Understood..there would be some disagreement. Just an opinion.

    FWIW I seldom skied the GM latched....generally still in walk mode on anything but the 138s. And I am not a tiny guy. Dynafit One I did ski side by side (same ski same day anyway) with the GM and was a LOT softer boot that the GM imo. Flex is more even across the board on the One which makes it seem much softer than it is I suspect.

    Skied the One and the RS many many days side by side later in the season and even on differing feet. Which is how I came to that indirect RS/GM comparison.

    Just a differing opinion. With out all the boots here and side by sides I am just going from last season memories and field notes.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dane1 View Post
    FWIW I seldom skied the GM latched....generally still in walk mode on anything but the 138s. A
    Wait... what. The. Fuck.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  4. #79
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    Could it be that Lee is talking about the GM with carbon struts on the side, and Dane is talking about the GM with the full carbon cuff?

    I don't know, but worth mentioning.

    ...and yes I understand that the official "Green Machine" was with the full carbon cuff, but plenty of people called the old zzero 4cf the green machine.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by PNWbrit View Post
    Wait... what. The. Fuck.
    He's gotta mean with the tour/ski lever in the up position, not unlatched buckles, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by auvgeek View Post
    But I will say that my buddy bought the new lean-lock bar and said it was barely noticeable.
    That surprises me. My DIY mod was c. 3* more upright per my rough measurement and night to day. Have you tried the One/Merc/Vulc? My One PX with the lean-lock plate in the upright position is more upright than my modded TLT5M.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Steve View Post
    He's gotta mean with the tour/ski lever in the up position, not unlatched buckles, right?
    I assumed so.

    Anyway, still beyond bizarre and pretty much negates the endless AT boot stiffness navel gazing.

    If you're just going to ski them in walk mode you might as well simply buy the ones that best coordinate with the color of your skis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  7. #82
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    Anyone been in the Factor MX 130 yet?

  8. #83
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    Buckled up and in walk mode. Pretty much tells you what I thought of the walk mode on the GM. Not much...

    I'd suspect JR has a grasp on all this. Figured all my data would be skewed with the Zzero GM feedback so different from what had been posted. Curious though what we actually talking about.

    "Could it be that Lee is talking about the GM with carbon struts on the side, and Dane is talking about the GM with the full carbon cuff?"

    Funny story to all that. Skiing a "steep" clinic when we were asked to ski in walk mode..when I then asked half seriously, "isn't everyone already?" . I don't find it uncommon to ski unlatched or unbuckled in DH boots. But I don't do that in any of my current AT boots. Walk mode is a lot better in any of them now which makes it a LOT harder. Easy enough to ski walk mode with the grey/white Prime and the GM. But ya the GM I used was a pretty stiff bitch IMO. Certainly as stiff as an RS if not more. I related the GM more akin to my old dh race boots after coming off the BD Prime.

    I was in the Dynafit ZZero 4 Green Mach TF..this one.

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    Original Prime was the white and gray version as a reference

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    Oh and worth a second thought. The GM I skied in walk mode was still a LOT stiffer than TL5TM and every bit and more boot than a TLT5P was with tongue and power strap cinched down Those I did ski side by side. Never once thought I wanted to ski my 138s with a TLT5 P. Even knowing some do. Skied the 138s often with the GM unlatched...just not always intentionally.
    Last edited by Dane1; 10-02-2013 at 05:12 PM.

  9. #84
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    Per Dane1, skiing in walk mode can be handy for low angle stuff, especially long low angle double-poling exits, e.g., return from Kendall west bowls, flats to the hairpin at the end of the Birthday Tour. IME, how a ski boot skis in walk mode varies greatly from boot to boot. Zzeus (WM similar to GM) skis pretty well pretty much anything in walk mode. So did all my old school Scarpas and Scarpa F3. OTOH, Skiing in pure walk mode in TLT5 and One is pretty much impossible cuz the buckle is completely relaxed in walk mode. There are simple ways to snug the cuff on TLT5/6/One/Merc/Vulc without locking the lean-lock for low angle stuff; I use a loop of 4mm perlon. I posted the pics on the main TLT5 thread.

    ETA: Here are the pics.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Steve View Post
    Per Dane1, skiing in walk mode can be handy for low angle exits.
    That's not what he said though? Seems that it was his normal practice (in older boots).

    I've never, ever, felt the compunction to ski while in walk mode regardless of type of boots or length of low angleness. In fact not being able to ski off while relatively easily accidentally leaving a boot in walk mode is one of the best features of the Mercury/Vulcan type cuff latch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  11. #86
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    I think it's personal physiology thing. When I was a dedicated pinhead I skied with the walk lever flipped up about 50% of the time. Anyway, for me skiing with the lever up and snug cuffs with old style Dynafit shitty walk mechanism (e.g., Zzeus, GM) isn't a whole lot different than with the lever down. One time I inadvertently skied for a half day of resort skiing in my Zzeus with one lever up the other lever down without noticing. FTR, beer and hooch were involved.

  12. #87
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    Nope not what I said, but none the less Steve called it.

    "isn't a whole lot different than with the lever down. One time I inadvertently skied for a half day of resort skiing in my Zzeus with one lever up the other lever down without noticing."

    Not uncommon for a race coach or advanced classes to be ask/asked to ski with down hill boots unbuckled. Those are not AT boots of course. I had a hard time figuring out when both the Prime or the GM were locked and when they weren't skiing in them. Prime was a little easierr to notice but not a lot imo. And never really cared one way or the other locked or unlocked. Skied the Prime and the Spantik for 2 months in Chamonix. So I wasn't expecting much for a ski boot obviously. Spantik is always in walk mode Worse yet some times I don't lock down my Dynafit heels either. Pretty common now in easy terrain with the TLT unlatched, in walk mode and using low tech race bindings. Across Snow LK and out to Alpental with decent snow is a fun run set up like that. I do buckle up and snap my heels in for skiing down to Snow Lk however.

    I'm not that good of skier and I'm lazy. Seems like a no brainier to me. And I like soft boots.

  13. #88
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    The only pairs of AT boots I have skied are the Dynafit TL Aero and the Green Machines with the full carbon cuffs (Dane's link did not work for me so unsure if that is what he had).

    Even though the conversation has veered some, I think it points out how giving a boot a number is flawed.

    The GM with their full CF cuff, 4 buckles and Pebax shell illustrate this so well. The cuff does not flex laterally although I perceive flex in the pebax lower boot when it is tongued. The flex forward is softened by the pebax tongue, but it is very stiff if you get pushed back.

    I am with the Brit in that when I have skied my boots in tour mode it is very noticeable and takes a lot away from the boots high octane performance-I only like tour mode on longer run outs. Dynafit advertised the last GM had an improved tour mode from the earlier Zzero models-I have no idea.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dane1 View Post
    Not uncommon for a race coach or advanced classes to be ask/asked to ski with down hill boots unbuckled.
    That's a completely different thing and reasoning than just "not bothering" to put your AT boot into ski mode.

    Even the older gen boots with crappy walk mode - I was almost always on Garmonts - skied like complete shit (even more so) unless latched.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  15. #90
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    FTR, I block the TLT5/One lean lock (but keep the cuff snug) only on low angle stuff, e.g., meadow skipping, double poling down logging roads, fat fishscale Nordic mode exiting DH via Tronsen, gliding out from Source Lake to Lot 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dane1 View Post
    Pretty common now in easy terrain with the TLT unlatched, in walk mode and using low tech race bindings. Across Snow LK and out to Alpental with decent snow is a fun run set up like that.
    Okay, I can see doing that with the GMs or with my TLT5/One lean-lock-block + snug cuffs, but do you really ski the TLT5/One in full-flop tour mode (top buckle flipped forward/loose cuff) down the avy debris slope from Snow Lake Divide to Source Lake? I'd be on my ass in a milisecond in full-flop TLT5 tour mode there.
    Last edited by Big Steve; 10-02-2013 at 05:10 PM.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by snapt View Post
    Anyone been in the Factor MX 130 yet?
    1 day (backcountry, so just a few runs). Stiffer than Freedom SL (noticeable but not huge). Stiffer than Maestrale RS (a lot). Stiffer than old Factor 130 (a lot). 115-125 ballpark? Freedom SL is 115-120ish?

    FWIW I still think the Mobe is way too high, especially since the Hurricane is down at 100 and they were essentially the same boot for the last few years of their production. Should be 105 or maybe 110 at the most.

  17. #92
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    "but do you really ski the TLT5/One in full-flop tour mode (top buckle flipped forward/loose cuff) down the avy debris slope from Snow Lake Divide to Source Lake?"

    Come on now! ..as I said..not that good of skier. I've walked down from the divide (Chair actually) as often as I have skied down with my boots in walk mode. It is so condition dependant and a run I do several time a week when we have snow. And generally fully buckeled up to actually enjoy the ride and not do kick turns down the hill. If not yes I have indeed gone ass over tea kettle more than once in that mode. Generally on the luge run below Source lk.

    "That's a completely different thing and reasoning than just "not bothering" to put your AT boot into ski mode."

    Not really IMO. And again depends on the actual boot. Never skied in a Garmont. Thought they were a POS for fit. I have lots of climbing boots that ski like a POS and fit better. Any of them make skiing in an unbuckled DH or AT boot cake by comparison. After my last ski from the top of Grand Montet on the high traverse to le Droites I called BS on that crap FOREVER.

    So guess i am missing your point.

    My point (and the reason for unbuckeling ) is using a softer boot will make you a better skier.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dane1 View Post
    My point (and the reason for unbuckeling ) is using a softer boot will make you a better skier.
    I haven't skied with Brit but some of my buds have and word is that Brit is a fucking really good skier, so my bet is that he knows all about the instructional benefit of unbuckling DH boots for practice, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dane1 View Post
    I've walked down from the divide (Chair actually). . . kick turns down the hill.
    Fuck, that sounds very unfun. I'm glad to say I've never walked down from Chair or SLD in ski boots, and that includes 1985 leather tele boots on 58mm waisted skis in the nasties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dane1 View Post
    If not yes I have indeed gone ass over tea kettle more than once in that mode. Generally on the luge run below Source lk.
    Seriously, try my 4mm perlon lean lock block for that glide out. See pics in previous post.

  19. #94
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    Wasn't a criticism of Brits or anyone's abilities. Hell I still practice some every day out. Not ashamed to admit it.

    Walking down from Chair isn't bad when the ice on the N face is worth climbing. Good climbing days aren't generally the best skiiing days. Afternoon freeze up after a lot of sun can be brutal on that slope. Not a big deal as long as it isn't a horrible crotch deep and a nasty breakable crust on top..(not usual when I want to climb there or the n side of Snoqualimie). I'd rather be able to ski it though. I can't on Broad Peaks and a TLT but a 138 might do it.

    Thanks Steve I'll try your idea.

    N face of chair in two styles of boots . Likely many here that would simply ski the terrian I still climb. No worries. Aint gonna lower my fun factor either way. But I do look for good ski conditions there now...not that I'll ever have the balls to jump in. Just skiing down from the actual n face 'shrund to Snow Lake in hard snow conditions is generally exciting enough for me!

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    http://skisickness.com/Snoqualmie/ElectricChair/
    Last edited by Dane1; 10-02-2013 at 06:46 PM. Reason: I have not skied with Brit..my mistake

  20. #95
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    Dane we met briefly in green valley this sping.

    I meant to tell you your boots were in walk mode ;-)

    Hope to run into you again this season.

    Steve - i'm flattered.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  21. #96
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    My mistake the Scotsman is who I was thinking. Met the 4 of you in Green valley just crossing the ridge?

    Funny, that morning my RS was in walk mode intentionally. My partner for the day was an old friend and past race coach.

    Thanks for the clarification.

  22. #97
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    Yep. I think you and Scotsman had skiied previous day.

    We're mates errr.. friends and try to live down the whole partner thing in face of vicious rumors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Downbound Train View Post
    And there will come a day when our ancestors look back...........

  23. #98
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    Lee,
    I went back and reread your comments on the Zzero 3 and 4 buckle boots from '07/'08 and the previous boot thread. Much of it now is really dated by 2013.

    You ended up going from a 100 rating to a 90 rating on the 4 buckle version. Where it eventually ended up as far as I can tell from '08 as :
    "85 - Dynafit Zzero CF 4-buckle (the "old" Green Machine)"

    Then this was posted as a question much later i nthe thread:
    "Any feedback/comparison on the 2011/2012 Zzero green machines and the new Mercury? I'm assuming the Zzero4 cf listed on page 1 at flex 85 is the same is the green machine. Trying to decide to buy the Zzero cheap (good fit) or make the leap and buy the pricier Mercury."

    and the answer by another forum member:
    Mercury (12/13) is stiffer than the green machine and has more ankle movement in walk mode. ZZero is a good boot but is pretty dated. Caveat, I am talking about the first generation green machines, I am not sure how they have evolved.

    They had indeed EVOLVED some. Still even by '11 /12 the Zzero 4 Carbon was old technology by comparison to a One/Mercury/Vulcan even with the added carbon cuff.

    2011/12 version
    full carbon cuff
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    Earlier version with carbon stringers on the cuff
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    I am still interested in the data points. Looks to me like there were some older boots included but not the later version of the Zzero4 Carbon.

    •New for 2011/12, the Green Machine features a carbon fiber cuff for added energy transfer and performance during the downhill without increasing weight

    My input was for the 2011/2012 version. Which IMO does not rate a 85 or a comparison to a TLT5 Mtn.
    Last edited by Dane1; 10-03-2013 at 03:33 PM.

  24. #99
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    Any info on the Garmont Cosmos/Celeste and Orbit/Nova? The are rated at 120/125 and 115/110 respectively. My wife tried the Celeste on indoors alongside her orange Spirit 3s w/ black tongue. Aside from the walk mode, she said that they flexed similarly forward while in ski mode. She is really hoping for a fit/stiffness upgrade from her Spirits, but I'm a little skeptical at this point. Anybody have any experience?

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by sethschmautz View Post
    Any info on the Garmont Cosmos/Celeste and Orbit/Nova? The are rated at 120/125 and 115/110 respectively. My wife tried the Celeste on indoors alongside her orange Spirit 3s w/ black tongue. Aside from the walk mode, she said that they flexed similarly forward while in ski mode. She is really hoping for a fit/stiffness upgrade from her Spirits, but I'm a little skeptical at this point. Anybody have any experience?
    The Cosmos was originally on this list, and the rating was about 100, if I remember correctly. I think that's a bit generous. I had about 10 days on the Cosmos last year, and I think it was stiffer laterally than the Zzeus, but the forward flex was nowhere near what was advertised. Maybe the same overall as the Zzeus. I would call it 90-95 on the chart today. FWIW, I modded the tongue hinge mechanism on mine pretty easily to reduce forward travel. It bumped up the forward flex by maybe 20%.

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