AT Boot Comparative Flex by model (updated)

[goldenboy]

I'll also throw out that next year's Scarpa Freedom SL is IMHO around 105-110. This will obviously need confirmation from others once more people have had a chance to ski them, but that's my suggestion for a starting point.

I only had 3 runs on them, on demo skis, at the end of the day- but I thought they felt quite similar to my Cochise (120). Would need more time to nail it down but that was my quick impression.

Also, I'd echo what rod9301 said- it's all well and good if a boot has a nice forward flex, but if it's a lateral noodle, who cares?

[Chris Knight]

Really appreciate this effort, thanks Lee and all. Set on a move to the "one boot" next season, and as a Scarpa fan (red denalis -> spirit 3s -> mod'd tornado pros), I was starting with the Freedom as the likely incumbent, but based on the volumes of positive feedback from many folks I know on the Cochise 120s, and on the maybe lower flex rating given to the Freedoms here so far (other than Goldenboy above), I may see if I can work in the Technicas first. Obviously early on the Freedom feedback, so I'll be very interested to hear more as people start to get on them. Either way, I'm saving up now and stoked about making the leap to any of these "new" boots (Tornados are my newest touring boot...generations back I see...). Thanks all, keep it coming!

[freak]

in my opinion the scarpa maestrale is definitely stiffer than the dynafit tlt 5 mountain. not much stiffer in the first few mm of forward flex, but if it is buckled kinda tightly, it keeps at least some flex if more force is applied while the tlt5 just collapses at some point. regarding skiability and the power to drive big skis, maestrales imho outrank tlt5 by far. i would also say that the scarpa denali xts are as stiff as the maestrales, even though they flex differently, dont walk too well and are quite outdated nowadays. but just considering the flex they are as stiff as maestrales imho, ive skied all of those boots for several seasons (100+ days).

i also think that the zzeus and quadrant are at least a bit stiffer than the aero freeride, probably as stiff as endorphins. and maestrale rs are a bit stiffer than factors and titans in my opinion. but i havent skied those all too much, so probably not very valid.

freak~[&]

edit: and only such a small difference between tlt5 mountain and performance? should be bigger imho, even though i only wore tlt5 performance once...

[Foggy_Goggles]

Since this thread is were all the people that actually go touring and know what the fuck they are talking about hang out....do any of the TLT/Mecury/Vulcan/Malestrale type boots "fit" in a Duke/997/Jester etc.? I'm not really concerned about release or if they "work". I've been wedging vibram soles in alpine binders for years.

Reason I ask is that is a requirement for a quiver of one type boot. I ain't traveling with two pairs of boots and I ain't skiing dynafits at the resort. Oh...I ain't fucking with swapable soles either. I thought we were really making progress with this but it seems like a majority of the bestest, lightest, stiffest boots are tech fitting only.

[adrenalated]

Since this thread is were all the people that actually go touring and know what the fuck they are talking about hang out....do any of the TLT/Mecury/Vulcan/Malestrale type boots "fit" in a Duke/997/Jester etc.? I'm not really concerned about release or if they "work". I've been wedging vibram soles in alpine binders for years.

I can only speak for sure with Maestrales (incl all variants), but...
Dukes - yes, no problem
Jesters - several of my coworkers have definitely jammed Maestrales into Jesters at demo days and stuff, but they are definitely jammed in there. I would say chance of release is "no fucking way" and it definitely tears up the boot a little.
997s - I'll try to dick with my Maestrale RS and my 997s and STH14s tonight and see what I come up with.
Guardian (including even though you didn't ask because it's worth considering along with these other bindings) - will also dick with these tonight and report back. I seem to remember Marshal saying earlier this year that they will fit, but with too much friction at the toe for a reliable release. I bet a little grinding on the sole would make them work fine if that's the case.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Since this thread is were all the people that actually go touring and know what the fuck they are talking about hang out....do any of the TLT/Mecury/Vulcan/Malestrale type boots "fit" in a Duke/997/Jester etc.? I'm not really concerned about release or if they "work". I've been wedging vibram soles in alpine binders for years.

Reason I ask is that is a requirement for a quiver of one type boot. I ain't traveling with two pairs of boots and I ain't skiing dynafits at the resort. Oh...I ain't fucking with swapable soles either. I thought we were really making progress with this but it seems like a majority of the bestest, lightest, stiffest boots are tech fitting only.

TLT5's are tech binding only. The others work with Dukes and may be crammed with unreliable results into some alpine bindings.

[GeezerSteve]

. . . the tlt5 just collapses at some point.

That's certainly not my experience. I'm 245 lbs. and have many days on TLT5Ms, about half with the tongue and half without. As I mentioned (or, perhaps, intended to mention, but failed to actually mention), IMO TLT5 skis "stiffer" if it is modded to be more upright. (Current model comes with upright option?) My stock TLT5 had so much forward lean that I had nowhere to go. I hated it and I can see how that feeling could be interpreted as "collapsing" by some. But, after I modded them to get c. 3* more upright, I had ample room to flex forward yet never experienced anything akin to a "collapse."

TLT5M is very stiff laterally. One of the limitations of this exercise in comparative flex is that it does not distinguish between fore-aft and lateral flex. That's more of a factor with some styles than others.

I also ski in Zzeus and One PX. IMO the TLT5M is laterally stiffer than the Zzeus, and TLT5M w/tongue is only a bit fore-aft softer (maybe 5 flex points?) than the Zzeus and One PX. TLT5M w/o tongue might be 10 flex points softer fore-aft than Zzeus and PX One. PX One and Zzeus seem about the same fore-aft, but the One is laterally stiffer.

[LeeLau]

i also think that the zzeus and quadrant are at least a bit stiffer than the aero freeride, probably as stiff as endorphins. and maestrale rs are a bit stiffer than factors and titans in my opinion. but i havent skied those all too much, so probably not very valid.

edit: and only such a small difference between tlt5 mountain and performance? should be bigger imho, even though i only wore tlt5 performance once...

Re: TLT5M - I have ZERO experience with that. Would be great to hear from others about it. Only have experience with TLT5P. So maybe the TLT5P is too low? Or the TLT5M is too high? Or both?

TLT5M is very stiff laterally. One of the limitations of this exercise in comparative flex is that it does not distinguish between fore-aft and lateral flex. That's more of a factor with some styles than others.

Totally agree. Tony in the original post had to struggle with that too. By its nature this list is a collaborative compromise.

[El Chupacabra]

in my opinion the scarpa maestrale is definitely stiffer than the dynafit tlt 5 mountain. not much stiffer in the first few mm of forward flex, but if it is buckled kinda tightly, it keeps at least some flex if more force is applied while the tlt5 just collapses at some point. regarding skiability and the power to drive big skis, maestrales imho outrank tlt5 by far.

I agree with this. I can ski bigger skis inbounds (190 Explosivs, 191 Lhasas, both with Dukes) with the Maestrales, on less-than-ideal conditions (firmer/ cruddier), than with the TLT5M, which I thought folded up like wet kleenex. The TLT5M felt like trying to ski in hiking boots.

The AT boots I have the most time on have been Garmont Axons and orange Maestrales. I used to have the old red Scarpa Denali XTs, but it's been so long that I can't really offer any useful comparison with them. I ended up modifying them a lot with Flexon tongues and booster straps, and then just gave up and got the Axons, which were an improvement all around.

IMHO, the Axon feels stiffer than the Maestrale during its initial flex, but has limited flex range. The Maestrale just fits me a lot better, so it skis better.

[GeezerSteve]

Or the TLT5M is too high?

No, not in IMO, if you've given the right number to the Zzeus. The TLT5M (w/tongue) is, say, 5 points softer fore-aft than Zzeus, but way stiffer laterally (not sure how to quantify that with numbers -- 15? 20?) So, for my style, the Zzeus and TLT5M should be given the same number. Likewise, IMO, the One PX and Zzeus have similar fore-aft stiffness (although different progressiveness), but the One PX is way stiffer laterally. So, for someone with a fore-aft balanced style, the One PX skis much stiffer than the Zzeus, but that might not be true for someone with a style that involves rocking to and fro.

I agree with this. I can ski bigger skis inbounds (190 Explosivs, 191 Lhasas, both with Dukes) with the Maestrales, on less-than-ideal conditions (firmer/ cruddier), than with the TLT5M, which I thought folded up like wet kleenex. The TLT5M felt like trying to ski in hiking boots.

There is room to have different takes on the stiffness of the TLT5 cuz it's so stiff laterally yet relatively soft fore-aft, so the determination of overall stiffness is very style-dependent. FWIW, I have no problem turning a 112mm waisted/23m radius ski (Voile Charger) with TLT5M w/tongues. I often ski with TLT5M on 102mm waisted skis without tongues and never use tongues with my spring touring skis (stiff 90mm waist traditional camber).

Also, again, are you on the 1st gen stock forward lean? See my comments in prior post re that.


ETA:

I can ski bigger skis inbounds (190 Explosivs, 191 Lhasas, both with Dukes) with the Maestrales, on less-than-ideal conditions (firmer/ cruddier), than with the TLT5M. . . .

Wait. You're skiing TLT5Ms in Dukes? How is that happening?

[kzittle]

Since this thread is were all the people that actually go touring and know what the fuck they are talking about hang out....do any of the TLT/Mecury/Vulcan/Malestrale type boots "fit" in a Duke/997/Jester etc.? I'm not really concerned about release or if they "work". I've been wedging vibram soles in alpine binders for years.

Reason I ask is that is a requirement for a quiver of one type boot. I ain't traveling with two pairs of boots and I ain't skiing dynafits at the resort. Oh...I ain't fucking with swapable soles either. I thought we were really making progress with this but it seems like a majority of the bestest, lightest, stiffest boots are tech fitting only.

I use my Malestrale RS in a guardian binding. Even had my local shop Bent Gate Mountaineering check them out. Didn't do a binding release check but they said they are good to go. There is minimal contact with the sole and binding. Hasn't worried me yet.

[El Chupacabra]

Wait. You're skiing TLT5Ms in Dukes? How is that happening?

No, I demo'd the TLT5Ms, skiing in Dynafit bindings. I own the Maestrales, and usually ski them with Dynafits, occasionally with Dukes.

[gregL]

Only have experience with TLT5P. So maybe the TLT5P is too low? Or the TLT5M is too high? Or both?

Personally, I'd put the TLT5P at ~100 and leave the Mountain where it is. Both boots are deceptive due to lack of mass, but as Big Steve says, both are quite stiff laterally.

I think I'd put the Maestrale RS and Mercury, as well as both Titans, at ~115. And you mean the Factor 110 is about 100, right? The 130 is more like 115 IMO.

FWIW, alpine boots are no longer as stiff as they once were either . . . the numbers have remained the same, but the boots have gotten softer.

[freak]

No, not in IMO, if you've given the right number to the Zzeus. The TLT5M (w/tongue) is, say, 5 points softer fore-aft than Zzeus, but way stiffer (not sure how to quantify that with numbers -- 15? 20?) So, for my style, the Zzeus and TLT5M should be given the same number.

i do not think so. of course boots flex different in all kind of directions, it is different for all kinds of skiers and anything, but if you want to keep the comparative character of the list, the tlt5 mountain has to be softer. way softer in my opinion. i would put them at 75 on the list (relative to the numbers where the boots i have a lot of experience with have atm). they are way softer than orange maestrales and not close to zzeus. im not such a bad skier, fairly light (~130lbs) and ski a lot (~150 days a year or so). of course i can ski any kind of ski with tlt5s or whatever boots. if the snow is good, i dont think it matters. if the snow sucks tlt5s dont work for me at all. maestrales do, barely. of course it would be possible to mod any boot, but you cant include mods on the listed boots, right?
i actually do not use my tlt5s anymore, because they are just too soft.

Personally, I'd put the TLT5P at ~100 and leave the Mountain where it is. Both boots are deceptive due to lack of mass, but as Big Steve says, both are quite stiff laterally.

I think I'd put the Maestrale RS and Mercury, as well as both Titans, at ~115. And you mean the Factor 110 is about 100, right? The 130 is more like 115 IMO.

FWIW, alpine boots are no longer as stiff as they once were either . . . the numbers have remained the same, but the boots have gotten softer.

yeah, if you would do that, you could leave the tlt5m where it is and put maestrales to 90...


freak~[&]

[TahoeJ]

Neat thread idea.

Cochise Pro 130's feel almost exactly like the Lange RX 130's I had the previous season.

[GeezerSteve]

im not such a bad skier, fairly light (~130lbs) and ski a lot (~150 days a year or so).

I don't doubt you are a good skier. You'd better be good if you're skiing 150 days/year. It's not a matter of good vs. bad. The fact is that some skiers use more fore-aft motion than others, and some skiers are more balanced fore-aft and rely more on lateral stiffness of the boot and less on fore-aft stiffness. Those with a Nordic background (e.g., me) are more likely to be in the former category, while, it seems, lots of young skiers appear to be in the latter group. Anyway, I've spent lots of days on Zzeus and TLT5s, and, for my style, they are of similar effective stiffness. I'm not saying that they always ski the same because, as Lee notes, mass of boot matters in some conditions.

Speaking of mass, that you are 130 lbs. and I am 245 lbs. brings up another set of issues. I don't buy into the TGR conventional wisdom that bigger guys need stiffer boots. IMO, in many conditions it actually works the opposite way, i.e., a 245 lb. guy sometimes easily pushes aside snow that a 130 lb. guy gets bounced around in. This is relevant to a discussion of boot stiffness because, as Lee points out, a boot's lack of ballast sometimes confounds the perception of stiffness.

but you cant include mods on the listed boots, right?

Agreed as a general proposition. But the TLT5 forward lean mod is an exception because the current TLT5s come stock with two forward lean options. The mods that I and many other have done result in the same forward lean as can be achieved in a newer stock TLT5.

[NoPostholio]

I am with Big Steve - I am 200 plus and ski the tlt5mtns and quadrants - I think the mtns are right where they should be on the chart - they are almost as stiff as the quadrants before they were ruined with powerwraps - which would add prob 5 to them now. I loved the way the maestrales toured but w/tongues esp the tlt5m's are stiffer.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Thanks for getting this thread going again. I've never needed or even liked the stiffest boot and haven't paid as much attention to forward flex as I have to a boot's ability to drive a bigger, stiffer ski. In some cases I've like softer boots more than stiffer ones (Maestrale > Titan for example) Part of this may be fit, and part of it the nature of a boots flex (on/off vs progressive). Here is how I'd rank the boots I've used in order of least to most capable downhill performance:

worst

Dynafit Zzero2
Garmont Megaride
Dynafit Zzero4
Scarpa Spirit 3
Dynafit Zzeus
Scarpa Tornado
TLT5 P (didn't fit at all, so this isn't worth much)
Dynafit Titan
Scarpa Maestrale
Scarpa Maestrale RS

best

[TahoeJ]

Speaking of mass, that you are 130 lbs. and I am 245 lbs. brings up another set of issues. I don't buy into the TGR conventional wisdom that bigger guys need stiffer boots. IMO, in many conditions it actually works the opposite way, i.e., a 245 lb. guy sometimes easily pushes aside snow that a 130 lb. guy gets bounced around in.

That's actually really interesting and I never thought of it that way. I only weigh 165 - 170 and when I was in a softer boot I felt like any variable or hard snow kicked my ass, but in a stiffer boot I could over-power it. Which aligns perfectly with what you're saying - the stiffer boot is accounting for my "lack" of mass in comparison.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Thanks for the info dudes. What it's looking like to me is the Alpine/Duke style binding "compatibility" with the boot is going to be the constraining factor. I guess the industry doesn't think that us quiver of one guys want to ski these better touring boots inbounds. At this point is looks like putting a new liner in the Radiums is the way to go.

[Buster Highmen]

Since this thread is were all the people that actually go touring and know what the fuck they are talking about hang out....do any of the TLT/Mecury/Vulcan/Malestrale type boots "fit" in a Duke/997/Jester etc.? I'm not really concerned about release or if they "work". I've been wedging vibram soles in alpine binders for years.

The Maestrales filt in the Marker F12s where the F12s don't have the wearing problem the dukes are reported to have.

[gregL]

At this point is looks like putting a new liner in the Radiums is the way to go.

A new liner won't make the Radiums tour any better. A Maestrale RS, Vulcan or Mercury will ski as well or better and run circles around the Radium on the skintrack. All will work with a Duke/Baron, will "fit" in an STH (but may not release when you want them to), and will work with next season's Marker Lord SP. IMO it's the binding manufacturers who've been dragging their heels, or in Salomon's case deliberately trying to promote their own boot/binding standard.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Thanks Greg. That's what I want to believe. This Lord SP is an alpine binder designed for touring boots yes? I'm aware that the Radium is basically an alpine boot with a vibram sole that tours OK. Its worked well for me for +/- 300 days of all types of skiing. I want something better but at this point, being off the shop form tit, I'm waiting in out until the upgrade is for real. I'm not really much of a quiver dude and the boot of one is mandatory for travel.

[Sicbith]

I'd throw the new Rossi AllTrack Pro 130 in the mix. It's a legit 130 flex boot, and is not the Lange XT painted for Rossi.

[wasatchback]

I'd throw the new Rossi AllTrack Pro 130 in the mix. It's a legit 130 flex boot, and is not the Lange XT painted for Rossi.

But it has the same shitty walk mode and the cuff floats, not locked to the lower when in ski mode? It doesn't have the plastic piece in the back that the XT has which at least gives the spine of the lower a bit of integrity. Soooo it's not an XT, it's worse.