2003 Subaru Outback: How Screwed am I?

[blender]

Thanks, jamal. You should start a subaru tech advice thread. Or maybe this is it. I will look into this stuff and see if I can talk to the head mechanic at this shop. I get the impression that the lady at reception only knows about half of what she's talking about. I think if I get a leakdown test done and things look good it will be a decent investment to do the head gasket, etc. The rest of the car is tight, just had timing belt and h2o pump done, blah, blah, great car, blah, blah.
Thanks again.

[shroom]

Plugs were done at 45,000-50,000. It only drops RPM's very occasionally at idle, no other running issues, not on a regular basis like a vacuum leak would (should). I also cleaned the MAFS, to no avail. No light on, and nothing showed up on a scan.

I started using using Lucas fuel system cleaner with Startron enzyme fuel stabilizer and have seen a slight improvement.

i've read quite a few threads on legacygt.com/forums on this issue and if i remember right it usually points to vacuum leak and/or failing 02 sensor.

[jamal]

Thanks, jamal. You should start a subaru tech advice thread. Or maybe this is it. I will look into this stuff and see if I can talk to the head mechanic at this shop. I get the impression that the lady at reception only knows about half of what she's talking about. I think if I get a leakdown test done and things look good it will be a decent investment to do the head gasket, etc. The rest of the car is tight, just had timing belt and h2o pump done, blah, blah, great car, blah, blah.
Thanks again.

Yeah 2200 for headgaskets is a lot. It must be a small external leak (you get a little coolant dripping between the head and block) and not overheating or anything. You have to really cook things to warp the heads and require a decking, and it is not something you should do unless it is necessary because less material on the head and/or block deck will change the valve timing. The cost to do only the headgaskets in the car on an 00+ should not be that much. Since the timing stuff and water pump is new I would expect well under $1000.

I have always disliked dealerships for non warranty work and would recommend you find an independent mechanic in town. They usually have better customer service because a lot of times the service writer, mechanic, and owner are all the same person, and they have to be honest and do good work to stay in business. Talking to a service writer who doesn't know anything about anything has always bothered me. Although I have met a lot of Subaru dealership techs who barely knew what they were doing.

I worked for a couple of performance shops in LA and at the last place I was at I ended up moving out of the shop and doing the online stuff and was a salesperson and service writer and actually knew what I was talking about. I like to think that went a long way. The owner was a lazy asshole who didn't trust anyone so now I'm doing my own thing but it is really just free consulting with the hope of selling performance parts. Think I went the wrong way and should have (or should) just opened up my own shop. Except the last thing I want to do is replace timing belts and headgaskets and brakes and wheel bearings all day on old piece of shit Subarus. There are plenty of people in this town who do that already.

And you're welcome. I'm happy to help and if you or anyone else has questions send me a pm.

[k2skier112]

If they are doing headwork they had better do a lot more than just deck them. Charging you to machine the heads upfront is kind of a big assumption because they may still be flat and not need it. So find out exactly what is being done to the heads for that cost. I would expect them to check for straightness and machine only if necessary, clean them, and do a valve job -new valve seals, re-lap ports, adjust the valve lash. On an SOHC head it is a lot easier because you just turn a screw on the rocker. DOHC cars you have to play mix and match with shims or lifters and maybe cut down the valves.

If you are getting charged that much and they are doing headwork then they might be pulling the whole engine instead of doing it in the car. So a lot of seals/gaskets should get replaced along with maybe the timing stuff and clutch (if it's manual) depending on how they look.

All of that goes a long way but you are still leaving the shortblock untouched. So the bearings, cylinder walls, and rings are not being checked or replaced. Before you go ahead with the work, have a leakdown test done to check the integrity of the cylinders and send an oil sample into blackstone labs. If everything checks out well then your block is in decent shape and repairs will be worth it. If leakage is above 7-8% and it is coming through the rings, or if there is bearing material in the oil, don't bother. Have them do the gaskets in the car on the cheap and drive it into the ground.

As far as what wears out on these cars it's the same as everything else, except you have extra differentials and cv axles. Tie rods, ball joints, struts, axles, wheel bearings, brake stuff, misc engine sensors will all need to be replaced at some point, power windows and a/c and sunroofs might have issues, etc. But it's all the stuff you have to deal with on any car that is well over 100k miles.

My legacy is at 205k and the a/c doesn't work, sunroof is broken, I've had the engine out twice- once for headgaskets and once for a full rebuild, trans has been out like 4 times because of throwout bearing/clutch stuff, all the suspension and brakes have been replaced, I need to do the suspension again and inner tie rods and probably the whole steering rack and the timing belt/water pump stuff is due pretty soon, fuel injectors probably need a cleaning, and I'm waiting for the fuel pump and radiator to fail.

If I had not worked in a shop and been able to do all the work myself and get parts at cost I would probably have pushed my car off a cliff.



If it doesn't stall, and doesn't throw a code, and otherwise runs fine, I wouldn't worry too much about it for now. And the additive stuff is bullshit so stop wasting money on it.

With E-10 fuels, additives are critical in marine equipment. Startron is an awesome product, but autos have sealed fuel systems where boats don't. I hardly ever put any additives in my cars tanks, just trying something, and the wife said it stumbles less often now.

ad-Is it required to pull the motor to R&R a cylinder head?

[jamal]

On a car with single overhead cams, yeah they'll come out in the car. That's almost all of the non-turbo cars, with the exception of the 96-99 2.5 and the new fa/fb engines.

DOHC, which is almost all the turbo cars, you really want to just pull the engine, which is actually not that big of a deal if you are in a real shop with a lift and air tools. Used to take me a little over an hour.

here is a picture I took of my car one time:

[glademaster]

Wanted to bump this because according to several mechanics I have spoken to, the head gaskets used in the 2010, 2011 and 2012 2.5L Outbacks are just as prone to failure as previous generations and lots of failures are starting to pop up between 60,000 and 100,000 miles.

I have a 2010 that now has 72,000 miles and just had to have both head gaskets and the cam and crank seals replaced for catastrophic failure of all three parts. The car was losing ~1 quart of oil every 20 miles. I have owned the car since new and changed the oil myself every 5,000 miles with proper weight API SM or SN oil, used a Subaru oil filter, never overheated the car and had the radiator flushed at 55,000 miles despite having to nearly have a shouting match with the service adviser over doing it before 100K.

[SB]

^^^^ I am not suprized.

Lesbarus are the NAXOs of the car world.

Atleast they stopped making NAXOS.

[grrrr]

Maybe you can find an '86 1.6l engine out of a GL. Gutless, and they ticked annoyingly but at least they lasted 250k.

[bigdude2468]

Wanted to bump this because according to several mechanics I have spoken to, the head gaskets used in the 2010, 2011 and 2012 2.5L Outbacks are just as prone to failure as previous generations and lots of failures are starting to pop up between 60,000 and 100,000 miles.

I have a 2010 that now has 72,000 miles and just had to have both head gaskets and the cam and crank seals replaced for catastrophic failure of all three parts. The car was losing ~1 quart of oil every 20 miles. I have owned the car since new and changed the oil myself every 5,000 miles with proper weight API SM or SN oil, used a Subaru oil filter, never overheated the car and had the radiator flushed at 55,000 miles despite having to nearly have a shouting match with the service adviser over doing it before 100K.

That just sucks, a four year old car and the engine failing like that. What does Subaru say? I had a tranny fail at 110,000 miles and got $1000 credit from the Mfg.

[SB]

Guy in the local dive said recently he thought he would start a Subaru garage since so many folks drive them. I had to stiffle an outright laugh and with a snicker say Yeah, nothin like job security.

[Bunion 2020]

96 Legacy Outback with 230K still runs pretty good.

Had a 93 that went to 247K before I made the mistake of having the timing belt replaced and the cut rate mechanic bollocks the job and stripped the threads on the harmonic balancing pulley.

Had a 92 before that that I ran to the mid 200s and sold to a friend who blew the motor driving to far eastern Montucky at 90 mph on a 100 deg. day.

Old subbies were money.

Anything beyond 96 I wouldn't touch with the shitty end of a 10' pole.

[DickMerkin]

Dump it. Take the $1500 and run.

I've never been real impressed with Subie's OR Jeep products.

But I have had 5 Toyotas in the past 20 years that have run til the wheels fell off...

I've junked 2 fords, an Oldsmobile and a Jeep for engine/tranny issues.

All but one of my 'yotas wen't to almost 200k.

[grrrr]

Dump it. Take the $1500 and run.

I've never been real impressed with Subie's OR Jeep products.

But I have had 5 Toyotas in the past 20 years that have run til the wheels fell off...

I've junked 2 fords, an Oldsmobile and a Jeep for engine/tranny issues.

All but one of my 'yotas wen't to almost 200k.

Almost 200k is not long lived.

[Todd Zander]

Anything beyond 96 I wouldn't touch with the shitty end of a 10' pole.

Almost right, the good 2.2's were bulletproof until 1999. My 98 2.2 is nearing 200k and doesnt leak or burn more than a 1/2 qt between changes, which is basically just vapors anyways.

[Danno]

Reading this thread seems to make my decision in my thread much clearer: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...hlight=comparo

[mnflyfish]

I have 230k on my 94 Land Cruiser. Had a bugger of an issue with my power steering that cost me $350 but other than that it's just maintenance. Knock on wood...

Sent from my SCH-I545 using TGR Forums

[DickMerkin]

Almost 200k is not long lived.

Sure it is. At 12-15k miles annually, that is over 13 years of useful service from a vehicle. That's respectable in anybody's book. Especially when driven in an environment with heavy traffic, shitty roads, and road salt.

And that's just where they were at when I got rid of them. I'm told at least one of those cars made it well beyond 200k, I sold it to a friend of a friend.

[grrrr]

Sure it is. At 12-15k miles annually, that is over 13 years of useful service from a vehicle. That's respectable in anybody's book. Especially when driven in an environment with heavy traffic, shitty roads, and road salt.

And that's just where they were at when I got rid of them. I'm told at least one of those cars made it well beyond 200k, I sold it to a friend of a friend.

If you're happy with under 200k, good on you. I would call it acceptable, but not really long lived. My 06 Volvo is at 180k, I figure it has at least that much left to go. Wont be the first car I've taken over 300k. But that's why I bought the Volvo instead of a Subie.

[cinnepa]

Dump it. Take the $1500 and run.

I've never been real impressed with Subie's OR Jeep products.

But I have had 5 Toyotas in the past 20 years that have run til the wheels fell off...

I've junked 2 fords, an Oldsmobile and a Jeep for engine/tranny issues.

All but one of my 'yotas wen't to almost 200k.

yes, had both and not real happy - toyota/nissan for next purchase

[4matic]

[Tye 1on]

If you're happy with under 200k, good on you. I would call it acceptable, but not really long lived. My 06 Volvo is at 180k, I figure it has at least that much left to go. Wont be the first car I've taken over 300k. But that's why I bought the Volvo instead of a Subie.

Word.

'06 Taco is at 150k with no repairs other than oil and tires. Needs brakes and shocks, but haven't even replaced the battery. Planning on another 150, knock wood.

'99 E-Class AWD Benz arrives Saturday, 92k, 2nd owner, meticulous maintenance, zero repairs. Going for 300k on that one as well.

Sure, repairs will be more expensive on these than a basic subie, but these and other threads that demonstrate how much service work is needed by so many people move me toward these brands...

[DickMerkin]

Honestly, I'm usually over a given car way before it gives out anyway. Who wants to drive an aging vehicle that's got 200+k on it, probably doesn't look so hot, and is likely beginning to nickel and dime you to death with repairs??

I like to own vs. lease, so I look for a vehicle that can give me 10-12 years of relatively trouble free service, and is worth a few bucks when I finally get rid of it so that I can roll that into the next purchase.

I've found that in Toyotas.

[GeezOar]

I enjoy driving an aging vehicle. My 88 Land cruiser has 260,000 mi. If it blows up tomorrow, I'd go looking for another. Tires, radiator, thermostat and belts only in the last 7 yrs.