Finding a Playful Charger

[Archiski]

Hi,

After lurking on TGR for many years I finally signed up because I need your help to find my “Holy Grail” of skis: a playful charger!

I just moved to Switzerland for an internship and I was only able to bring my powder skis (192 BentChetlers), so I need to get a second pair for variable conditions, crud/chop, hardpack, etc…

I’m 6’1 and 185 pounds and I sometimes tend to ski more “physically” than technically. I’m mainly skiing in Engelberg and Andermatt (so a lot of open slopes where you can open up your turns, but I still need some maneuverability for tighter couloirs) and I may use this ski for a few freeride competitions.


I want this ski to be able to charge in variable conditions (windblown snow, sunbaked snow, etc…) but also through crud/chop where I find my BC too “chattery”. I also want this ski to have a good edge hold when there is only hardpack off-piste.

Up to now I think that skis like the Katana, Bellafonte or Cochise would fit the bill but the problem is that I also want this ski to be quite playful; meaning that I want my ski to feel “alive”, it should give back some energy in turns, have a good pop to play with natural terrain, have a descent swing weight for occasional 360s and if possible be a twin-tip (even though if I really want to ride switch I’ll just take my BC out).

Finally, I won’t be using these skis in more than 50cm of powder (1.5 feet?), so flotation should be descent but it’s not the priority; also I rarely ski groomers so good carving performance is nice but not that important.


I guess that I’m looking for a ski in the 188/194cm length, 105/115mm width, tip rocker, twin tip with or without tail rocker (tail rocker should be smaller than the one on my BC!).

I thought about two skis, the Nordica Helldorado and the Moment Deathwish. But except for Blister reviews I wasn’t able to find much information on both those skis. I’m a bit worried about the issues that the Blister’s crew had with the Helldorado’s tip, also I’m not sure if this ski will be very poppy with all the metal in it. The Deathwish looks very interesting but I’m not sure how stiff it actually is and if it’s stiff enough to charge in crud, etc…
Do you have any other suggestions?

Thanks !

[csmith]

I have about 25 days on the helldorado in almost all conditions and really like the ski for the most part.

Ill try to address sone of your concerns:
Low tips/ spearing- I have only speared my tips twice. Once was hitting a mogul type lump when exiting a woods run at a resort and once on a stump that was an inch under the surface on a pow day. Both I am pretty sure most skis would have hit. That being said I have no issues on them when charging through uneven terrain. They earned my trust that I won't spear the tips.

Groomers/ rebound out of a turn- the skis feel extremely dead when skied with a lower edge angulation. It took me about a day or two to fully trust cranking them on edge because they felt like they had no bite when just cruising around. When I trusted them enough to finally throw them into a few higher speed high edge angulation turns I was quite surprised to see they hold a hell of an edge and have a good amount of rebound. I am talking really high on edge though. I actually love this ski on groomers though. Holds fairly well even on boiler plate ice. The local shop guy's favorite story to tell when anyone looks at the pair left in the shop is that this ski rebounded him out of a turn and threw him in the woods.

Fwiw I am 6'5" 280 pounds and a fairly agressive skier. I feel like if I had my choice I would want a little longer ski than the 193. I have no problem throwing this ski around when it gets tight but I am a good bit bigger than you.

[suntoucher]

I was on the 192 Belafonte the last two seasons, good for variable and hardpack offpiste, totally fine in 20cm of pow. but definitly not playful (in that lenght). maybe the jagshark?
now I´m on a down cd3 and loving it, check Blister, but its flat so not much rebound. I´m 6' and 160 pounds.

[scheunemonster]

on3p vicik and your problem is solved, that ski is bomber and will hold an edge in any condition. Best ski for hardpack and crud and still skis pow amazingly

[JRiph]

I have a pair of Whitedot Redeemer 190

IMHO is it a Charger with speed dependent power steering. Not super playful but plenty stiff enough. as for pop.. I have no clue what that is, but there's no metal in it. As for 360's..good luck you need awesome legs as the standard version is not light . It has uncanny edge hold (I love it on hard pack) it you forget about it being fat and non cambered and think of it as a 160 cm slalom ski. At has tail rocker but does not ski like it most of the time. As it is flat cambered it is not reboundy (and on uneven rock hard terrein it will knock your fillings out) but i think it is a small price to pay for a big ski that you can get to behave like this.
Only downside is that you'll probably not ski the BC's anymore )



Maybe look at Down skis Countdown 3 ?

http://www.downskis.com/ski-specifications/countdown-3.

last bit of the sale prices.

made in the same factory (not the same ski company) so build quality should be excellent

[whyturn]

praxis GPO I fist picked up in 192 looks like what your describing. A lot if great deals with coupons and construction is top notch. Drew has 3 1st place wins in this years FWT. Tail rocker is minimal like my squad. I don't like much tail rocker and they fit the bill

[Mountain Relish]

I am about the same size as you, and I have the 193cm Cochise, and it is certainly a charger. It is playful when the snow is soft, but when the conditions get tougher I find it a handful at my size.

I think the 185cm may be a suitable fit for what you describe, and your size. That said if you fancy a proper charger I would happily part with my 193cm before they do me some serious harm.

[geo039]

Normally don't read all these threads but playful charger is the 3.

Arch peep some info on the 3 here:
http://blistergearreview.com/gear-re...is-countdown-3
..and there are a few reviews here and on Freeride.se and freeskiers.net too.

We are based in Geneva and I have 1 set left here which I thought were going on my feet but gotta keep the balance sheet working. We will sort you out and your skis would be with you in 3 days. Ship via post.ch. Contact me anytime with questions. Gregor (at) downskis.com

[Swirlwich]

I love this question and the deathwish is the answer. i ski the 190 and im 6'3 195-200 and its stiff enough to rail but still is super sick to play around on natural features. i cant say enough about that ski. I found the vicik to be a bomber ski that loves to bomb but is more of a muscle ski and less of a finesse, theres nothing wrong with that and wgo doesnt like to bomb and lay trenches i just prefer the deathwish

[shroom]

I am about the same size as you, and I have the 193cm Cochise, and it is certainly a charger. It is playful when the snow is soft, but when the conditions get tougher I find it a handful at my size.

I think the 185cm may be a suitable fit for what you describe, and your size. That said if you fancy a proper charger I would happily part with my 193cm before they do me some serious harm.

tell me more....

[Mountain Relish]

tell me more....

Sadly I imagine trying to ship them to the US from Verbier would be crippling (posting anything out of Switzerland is very expensive, let alone skis). They are last seasons, but I bought them new at the start of this season, and they have only been skied maybe 6-7 times. I was hoping to get something approaching 350chf. before postage.

[Banh Mi]

Nordica Patron.

[F33d3r]

The Faction 3.zero may be worth looking at. Twinrocker that is reasonably stiff

[mfa81]

12/13 influence 115 might work well altough not a real stiff charger! take a look at the review at blister

[undertow2]

I would think the Hoji would absolutely fit the bill for what you are looking for...

[Ender]

2nd on the Hoji and moment bibby pro fits this bill to a T.

[Archiski]

Hi,

Thanks a lot for all the answers ! (I couldn't reply earlier since I was out skiing)


For On3p and Praxis I'm a bit worried that shipping them from the US to Europe may be a bit expensive but from what I've seen on On3p's website the Vicik seems nice !

My only concerns about the Vicik but also the Countdown 3 is that:
- They would not be playful enough to have fun on wind lips and other natural terrains, to do a few tricks here and there, etc ... and that they are only pure chargers à la Katana or Bellafonte but with a slight ability to slarve.
- That the Countdown 3 is more of a powder ski than a crud/variable snow ski.

But maybe I'm wrong on both points ?


@Swirlwich: The Deathwish does seem really nice and I've found a retailer in Chamonix on Moment's website, so I may try to go there next week-end to try them (even if it's not the best ski for me I just want to try that triple camber!).

I understand that the Deathwish won't have the same stability in chop/crud than my old Katanas or the Vicik but do you think that they would still be stable enough to do quite fast and big turns in this kind of snow? Could you compare the Deathwish's ability in crud/chop and its stiffness to another ski that I may have already tried?


I guess it comes down to: is there a really big difference as far as stability between the Vicik/Countdown3/etc.. and a ski like the Deathwish? If yes, I will have to ask myself if I'm going to use the fun/FSBC side of the Deathwish enough to justify loosing some stability... I wish I could try all of them :/.


For the other mentioned skis:
- Faction 3.zero: I don't know much about them so I'm going to try to find a few reviews.
- 12/13 Influence 115: I also thought about these skis earlier in the season but I wasn't able to test them and Blister seems to say that they're far from being stable in crud/chop, so I'm worried that they won't be much of an upgrade compare to my BentChetlers.
- Patron: If I remember well they're even softer than my 192 BC and wouldn't be much better in variable conditions.

@another skier: Thanks for the offer, but I tried the 193 Cochise back in December and for some reason that I can't explain I wasn't a big fan.

Thanks again for the answers !

EDIT: I didn't think about the Hoji, I'm going to have a look at them.

[mtskibum16]

Another vote for Moment Bibby Pro.

[Banh Mi]

Another vote for Moment Bibby Pro.

I would have said this but I thought OP didnt want to go larger than 115mm.

[Mountain Relish]

I completely understand about the Cochise, as the reason I am not convinced by them is the fact that I do not find them at all playful.

When I have been looking around for something similar to what you want a few people have mentioned the Salomon Rocker 115. I haven't skied them myself, but it may be worth considering them, especially when you read Blister's review.

[buttahflake]

i just got back from skiing a bunch of next's years shape's at the bird.
the Line Influence 115 and the Faction 3.0 Candide, both of these were playful and forgiving as hell, with enormous sweet spot's.
the new Rossi with the 'air tip' black/orange Super 7, holy shit! what a fun ski.

[geo039]

Overall we are here in CH...if you don't make up your mind about which ski. Come by GE to drink a beer, grab a set of skis, see what we are about, talk shop, etc. If you are in eastern CH I can hook you up with some peeps too. Good luck...this is TGR so you will get every ski possible as a reco

[volklpowdermaniac]

191 wren. 113mm under foot, 30 ish turn rocker, no metal so stiff but still lively, flat tail, nice tip rocker....

[suntoucher]

Hey,

as the bibby has entered the game aswell I´ll give my take on bibby vs down 3. I got about 25-30 days on bobby 190 and the same on the down 3. I definitly prefer the Down cd3.

the bibby is stiffer underfoot (and camber) but tail seems slightly softer or at least the down gives more support. for me that means flexwise the down 3 is a more balanced ski. I also never liked (or used) the big twintip on the bibby, in some situations it feels as if the stable plattform underfoot just stopps 20cm behind my heel because the tailrocker splays wide.

the wider tip of the bibby elevates you a bit more in crud than the down but the straighter shape of the down skis better in crust and doesn´t hook. Don´t get me wrong, the down is really good in crud, but the belafonte blasts it and the bibby stays a bit more on top.

the bibby obviously gives you some rebound because of the camber and holds an edge better on groomers but because the down 3 can slarve, if you wan´t it to, and can turn on a dime it is the more playful ski for me.

to answer directly: I think the down 3 is playful enough (it is for me, and you are slightly bigger than me
it is top in variable snow, but there are better skis in crud-that aren´t playful though
and geo´s a good guy

[Archiski]

Hi,

Thanks for all the new answers!

As far as the Bibby go I never really considered it because 119mm underfoot seemed a bit too wide for an all around ski that I will also be using on hardpack days and I was a bit worried that it would overlap with my BentChetlers.

Moreover, when I say that I want my ski to pop and be lively a good example is the Rocker² 108; when I tried them during the Rocker Days I could just pop of everything with them and I could easily spin, play etc... However I felt that they were not very stable when I was starting to pick up speed in bad snow conditions and didn't really like their tail. That's why I consider the Deathwish since they are not too wide and from what I seem to understand they can as fun as the 108 but are stiffer and more stable (but I'm not really sure of how stable they really are ...).


It looks like that I should try the Countdown 3 and I have to be honest the price is really attractive considering my shitty intern salary. I was thinking about going to Chamonix this week so I may stop by Geneva if possible to see them live.

My only concern is that they won't have a lot of pop and that they won't have that lively feeling that I'm looking for (it was my big issue with my old Katana and Corvus). Furthermore, even if I love to "charge" most of the time, often at the end of the day I just want to play around and it looks like the CD3 won't be very forgiving for that. I really should PM geo to see what he thinks and ask if a test is possible.

But as I said in an earlier post, may be what I'm looking for doesn't exist and I'll have to reach a compromise.


For On3p I only found one retailer in Europe and they only have the Billy Goat and the Wren so it kind of take On3p out of the picture.