Pricing Q - Private Ski Day Photography

[Hugh Conway]

Damn, you're sucking me back in. This is a conspiracy isn't it? OK, what's the law? Answer that one. You can't.

It's perfect reading your posts out loud in a long island accent.

[Lonnie]

There's no law against anyone taking photographs of their friends on a fun ski day.

What happens days later when they get home is something else....


Riddle me this. What about all the professional ski photogs that utilize a ski areas lift system to capture images for their businesses?

[Hugh Conway]

There's no law against anyone taking photographs of their friends on a fun ski day.

What happens days later when they get home is something else....

and escorts aren't hookers

[carvemeister]

It's perfect reading your posts out loud in a long island accent.

Good comeback.

[Tippster]

Damn, you're sucking me back in. This is a conspiracy isn't it? OK, what's the law? Answer that one. You can't.

Why don't you tell us? I have anecdotal evidence, from the company lawyers, that it's theft of services. I was approached by one of my video clients, after they heard that I did Whitewater Photography in the summer, to come out the next day I had off and shoot some stills for them for ~$200. I got nervous about possibly losing my job so I asked my bosses what could be problematic in this scenario.

You claim that it's perfectly OK. Please show me how this arrangement doesn't violate a Mountain's exclusivity license for commercial photography, should they have one.

If you look at the post you keep referencing I did say "keep it on the DL." No, they're not going to find out about a 1x deal to do a photo shoot on land they manage, but let's say it goes well, the client tells their friends, and before you know it a cottage industry has started. Again, my post said "If the mountain provides this service," which OP stated they do not, then you are performing a service you are not licensed for on that property.

Seriously? What do you mean by "big trouble?" The most they could do is pull your ticket, assuming a warning did not suffice. What am I missing? ...

So what would be the "Hard way" in this case anyhow? Being asked to stop?

Ask some of your lawyer friends about damages they can sue you for. Often it's multiple times the amount you got paid.

[carvemeister]

I have anecdotal evidence, from the company lawyers, that it's theft of services.

Nothing personal but, "Anecdotal evidence" is useful only for idiots. Your company lawyers are therefore, idiots.

[Hugh Conway]

Nothing personal but, "Anecdotal evidence" is useful only for idiots. Your company lawyers are therefore, idiots.

WHAT THE FUCK HAVE YOU POSTED YOU STUPID LAZY TWAT?

[carvemeister]

WHAT THE FUCK HAVE YOU POSTED YOU STUPID LAZY TWAT?

Good one. Stay scared, candy-ass.

[Tippster]

Nothing personal but, "Anecdotal evidence" is useful only for idiots. Your company lawyers are therefore, idiots.

It's "anecdotal" because I didn't have them show me the relevant law - I took their word for it.

[Todds]

Why not give them all of the pictures on the disk or at least all of the half decent ones?

[Binky]

So proud of his day at the K, he is...

[tsproul]

"polished" shots in a sporting activity isn't always easy.

You have a father with a big ego but little skills. How are you going to get warren milleresque action shot he is looking for when he can barely manage to wedge down the bunny?

If they are a rad skier and want shots of them taking bigs lines, that requires radio communication.

I hope you've covered expectations with the clients. And I hope you know the resort inside and out. To get "polished" shots requires the photog to intimately know the location and to have a good feel for the client skills and expectations. If it's bright and sunny you'll shoot at different spots on the mountain as the day goes on and your angles will often be limited. Do you know the mountain well enough? Overcast will require a different take. Scenic location shots is different than action. Young kids require a different approach than teenagers. Etc etc.

Even if all they want are a bunch of family shots on the mountain, it takes considerable people skills to get them in a good mood and willing to do their part to make the money shots, especially for several hours.

Good luck.

[Vt-Freeheel]

Thanks for teh lulzs. Keep up the good work!

[Benny Profane]

I was approached yesterday by someone looking for me to accompany their family for either a half day or full day of skiing as their private photographer. I think it could be a lot of fun but I'm a little unsure of what number to throw out there for my price.

I know there are tons of schools of thought on pricing but I'd still love a little input.

My out of pocket expenses would be about $20 in gas and a lift ticket, plus my time shooting/skiing and editing. I am very much in favor of a deal where they get a CD of high res and low res images. I don't like the idea of only giving them low res and making them do any prints through me. It just feels cheap, I'd rather price it right and give them full access.

Any thoughts on laying out expectations? I was thinking at least 15 polished shots, maybe more depending on how many decent shots we get. I can't imagine they'll want 100 shots, but I could be wrong.

Does $500 seem reasonable for 3 hours of skiing? They buy my lift ticket.

Thanks,

Justin

I would reconsider your business model. You are throwing away a large income stream if you give away your high rez. Prints are money.

[smmokan]

I would reconsider your business model. You are throwing away a large income stream if you give away your high rez. Prints are money.

Customers don't want prints these days. They want high res files so they can post them online, send them to friends/family, etc. I can't remember the last customer (I don't get many, a dozen or so a year) that asked me for a print package. Every single one asked if I included the files in my price.

Photographers have to adapt with the customer demands, they can't stick to an antiquated business model. No one wants to buy $25 prints when they can get the same print from CostCo for $1.50.

[Benny Profane]

So, fine, give them low rez. That's all they need for online. And gear your business towards those who want prints. People with money. I'm not talking about competing with Costco. You can't do that. But don't give the high rez away.

[Altmanator]

"polished" shots in a sporting activity isn't always easy.

You have a father with a big ego but little skills. How are you going to get warren milleresque action shot he is looking for when he can barely manage to wedge down the bunny?

If they are a rad skier and want shots of them taking bigs lines, that requires radio communication.

I hope you've covered expectations with the clients. And I hope you know the resort inside and out. To get "polished" shots requires the photog to intimately know the location and to have a good feel for the client skills and expectations. If it's bright and sunny you'll shoot at different spots on the mountain as the day goes on and your angles will often be limited. Do you know the mountain well enough? Overcast will require a different take. Scenic location shots is different than action. Young kids require a different approach than teenagers. Etc etc.

Even if all they want are a bunch of family shots on the mountain, it takes considerable people skills to get them in a good mood and willing to do their part to make the money shots, especially for several hours.

Good luck.

Thanks for the well wishes! I don't think anyone in this thread thinks that something like this is a cakewalk that doesn't require any more than switching it to the green square and shooting away at 10fps. That said, I have no regret taking an opportunity like this and giving it the best shot I possibly can. Do I expect it to be challenging? Of course. That's what makes it exciting for me.

The day is going to be bright and sunny with no fresh snow. I don't think anyone's expectations are for blower pow shots but I think it's a great day to capture a family enjoying the sport together along with some fun action. I'm really looking forward to mixing things up with documentary style, action, and portrait. I think they will be happy with the results. If they are not? I'm a pretty reasonable guy and I suspect we can come to a good resolution. We're not talking about a once in a lifetime moment like a wedding that is an emotional firestorm.

If you want to think negatively, there are a ton of reasons why any job might not turn out perfectly or why you need to be the world's most accomplished photographer to take it. I'd rather build on the skills I have, push myself to map out a plan for success, and put everything I've got into delivering the best finished product I can.

[Altmanator]

So, fine, give them low rez. That's all they need for online. And gear your business towards those who want prints. People with money. I'm not talking about competing with Costco. You can't do that. But don't give the high rez away.

So lay it out for me. How would you do it? What would you charge for the day, would that cover gas, equipment, time, or would you be recouping those through prints? What would you expect to make in print sales from a family that you shot for a day? How many prints would that be?

I'm going to help them get their prints at my cost through a lab I work with. I will be able to see how many prints they end up making. My suspicion? Not many.

I know this is not the old guard business model but it's what feels right to me. Am I shooting myself in the foot? Perhaps, but I don't think so. I think I'm providing the service that my customers want, in fact they told me that they really didn't like other photographers they've worked with who kept them beholden to them for their images. If I can meet my costs and make what I need to AND my customers are happier with me than with my competition, isn't that a good thing?

I also don't think the argument of "but you're driving the price down on everyone" really applies here. I think I'm just adapting an obsolete business model to modern times.

[tsproul]

If you want to think negatively

Not this - just trying make sure you were grounded in your expectations on this sort of job.

[Benny Profane]

So lay it out for me. How would you do it? What would you charge for the day, would that cover gas, equipment, time, or would you be recouping those through prints? What would you expect to make in print sales from a family that you shot for a day? How many prints would that be?

I'm going to help them get their prints at my cost through a lab I work with. I will be able to see how many prints they end up making. My suspicion? Not many.

I know this is not the old guard business model but it's what feels right to me. Am I shooting myself in the foot? Perhaps, but I don't think so. I think I'm providing the service that my customers want, in fact they told me that they really didn't like other photographers they've worked with who kept them beholden to them for their images. If I can meet my costs and make what I need to AND my customers are happier with me than with my competition, isn't that a good thing?

I also don't think the argument of "but you're driving the price down on everyone" really applies here. I think I'm just adapting an obsolete business model to modern times.

Hmmmmm

I'll leave you some advice. Buy an Epson printer, learn to use it inside and out. I suggest a 3880 or a 4900 to start. Learn a little color management and simple post processing. Think of those pieces of paper coming out of the printer as ten and twenty dollar bills.
Photography is a brutally competitive profession today. Don't be so cavalier when you say that you are going to just give away prints at cost. You will never succeed at the business with that attitude. How do you think Sharpshooters makes money?

[Altmanator]

My questions were sincere. If I am to compare two business models I'd like to know from your experience what to expect.

What would you charge for the day? How many prints would you expect to sell after the day, and how much would you net from those sales? Since you are the keeper of the files and all prints are run through you, is all of that income realized within the first week, month, year after the shoot?

It would be nice to have a continual income stream from prints of past shoots so I am genuinely curious how you would structure a similar shoot and what you would expect to make from it.

Thanks

[Benny Profane]

I'm not a photographer at the moment. I do post processing. I used to assist. So, I can't speak for day rates.
The closest model I could think of is weddings. Try to hook up with a local successful wedding photographer an shoot for him/her and study his business. Weddings are similar to what you describe here. I'm guessing that, if he/she is profitable, the day rate is just the start, and they try not to give much away.

[Altmanator]

I hear what you're saying but l think it's 6's on which way to price things.

If you charge a small fee up front and make the bulk of the money on print sales, in the end it works out to a final number. It's not like a famous image where you're making money for decades off the licensing.

If you have a sense of what that final number is, how much you can possibly stand to gain from the event you're shooting, why not just charge that number up front? If by doing so you are making your clients happier that's a win/win. You make the same amount of money, clients are happier.

If the clients can make their own prints through a reputable lab, and don't feel like they're lining your pockets everytime they do so, they may end up with more prints. More prints means more free advertising for you whenever someone see them. Not to mention, they are much happier about the whole arrangement because they've been facebooking and tweeting the gorgeous photos you took all over the internet and saying how wonderful you were to work with.

I really think if priced intelligently, the same amount of revenue can be captured through either model. I'm not saying I have the history in the business to price it right the first time, but I do know which model I prefer and it's just a matter of fine tuning the pricing to end up with the same resulting revenue....plus happier clients.

I know I keep worrying about my clients being happy, maybe that's just a bad habit from my time in the retail world, but I think it is of the utmost importance. You suggest that the way to combat a brutally competitive industry is to ensure I extract the most dollars per client by not leaving anything on the table. I would argue it is to get the most clients possible as references and promoters of my services while ensuring my costs are met and the profit I need to make is covered.

I'm not suggesting you are the only person who believes in the pay per print model or that it hasn't worked well for many people for a long time. I'm just arguing a model to the contrary.

[smmokan]

I'm with Altmanator here... by pricing everything as a package and including prints, you're guaranteeing your revenue from the day. By making customers purchase prints, you're taking a chance on whether or not they want to spend the money. You could make more, you could make a lot less.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Altmanator isn't a full-time photog. He's not going to buy a $1,500 printer because it doesn't make sense. For people doing it part-time (like myself), the best and easiest way to price packages is all-in. And to boot, that's what customers want, too.

[Benny Profane]

Whatever, dude. That's why I work in post. Everybody wants to shoot, nobody wants to do the after work. Not glamourous enough, I suppose. Thing is, the dudes who have both figured out make a cash stream even when shooting dries up. Printing ain't that hard, just needs maybe a 3 grand investment. As you said, they're going to have prints made sometime, why don't you capture it with a quality sales pitch. You know, "pfffft, Costo/Walmart/Shutterfly? Please. I make you beautuful print!, last long time!" It's easy.