The Epoxy Thread

[Gunder]

JB Weld. Enough said.

On another note, I do remeber from back in Plastics Engeneering that slower set expoxies where way more durable and better for ski reapirs, but I dont off hand remeber the chemistry as to why. Also the most important thing with epoxies is to make sure you nail the mix ratio. That has way more to do with the final strenght then just about any thing else.

[klauss]

3M 5200 is easy screw removal, inexpensive and has a long open tube shelf life. My current tube was opened a year ago. Haven't tried it, eh?

Big Steve. Does this stuff stick to the binding screws making it difficult to re-use them?

What's the consensus on Roo Glue http://www.tognar.com/roo-ski-binding-glue-2oz/. Is that stuff just re-packaged wood glue/titebond or better?

[Hugh Conway]

If it's fresh 5200.... yes.

Roo Clear (what Tognar sells as Roo binding) MSDS
http://rooglue.com/rooclearmsds.pdf

[klauss]

Yeah Roo's website boldly states

Are Roo glues waterproof?
No, nor are any other products that compete with Roo. Our products are highly water resistant, however, and have been used for some exterior applications. Contact Roo for more information.

thanks for that link hugh. I will try to keep it out of my eyes.

looks like I need a new product then. one that seals the wood ski core, but does not adhere to the screw. Maybe that 3M 4200 is worth a look.

[gritter]

Good post gritter. From where are you drawing these conclusions? Not challenging them, just wondering how you came across this knowledge.

Also, let's say you're installing inserts into a ski and because you hand-drilled the holes there was a little wobble in the drill bit which resulted in a slightly oversized hole and a resulting loose fit of the insert. You want those things to stay put so what kind of glue/epoxy/sealer do you use? I'm guessing you could also beef the bond between insert and ski up with shredded steel wool or fiberglass, but what is the best stuff to not only seal around the insert but to bond it to the ski as strongly as possible without worrying about water intrusion or the stuff becoming brittle and cracking/falling out?

Willie,

I have a general background in this stuff, have spent a lot of time making sea kayaks using a strip cedar method (fibreglass sheathed wood kayaks). Also messed around with prepreg a bit to make a tele binding and have done a bit of ski building too). Also I am a mech eng by training.

My rationale:

Seal vs hold - Well the fact that you need to seal is a given - not having a seal will result in rotten cores / rusted screws. Adhesive is not really resising pull out in the direction of load so the only way that it could strengthen the mount is by soaking into the core to make it stronger or resisting the screw backing out over time. These are both probably secondary issues, and IIRC Zeno posted some interesting data to support this where he compared srews with different glues / tapping and not tapping.

Different glue types - a lot of glues are designed to hold two flat surfaces together, not fill a void. On drying they can shrink in voume and not seal. PU glues create a weak foam in voids which can be easily broken away - I use PU glues when strip building because it glues the strips together well, but the excess can be literally scraped off.

Epoxy fillers and cores blowing bubbles/soaking up epoxy - Learned this from general knowledge and experience from boat building. Weight is important on a kayak so I don't want the wood to soak up the epoxy (and it's expensive).

Gflex - sounds odd but the epoxy on a ski does not flex that much in reality. . I have made skin on frame kayaks using thin layers of glassfibre with 'normal' wests epoxy over a dacron skin - the whole thing is flexible to the touch and the normal epoxy is just fine.

To address your question above - it depends on how much spare room you have - if you still have plenty of thread engangement then I'd use epoxy because it will fill the voids and use a filler to strengthen it. I may even deliberately use unfilled epoxy to soak the core local to the hole first then mount with the epoxy+filler on a second round. If the threads aren't engaging much then I think that the issue is bigger - if you can't insert / helicoil a larger diameter then I'd probably try to wrap a glassfibre plug in there but too be honest if it is going to see a decent load then I'd be nervous about it.

Also to address your original question there was a Q&A on epoxy over on skibuilders.com which is well worth a read.

G.

[gritter]

P.S. My personal (and untested) view is that if you don't want to use epoxy for mounting due to concerns about handling risks or the permancent of it then probably the best options would be thing like Sikaflex which is a filler / sealer or even a flexible bathroom sealant. Perhaps JBweld is this sort of thing? - I haven't used that as we don't get it this side of the pond.

[XXX-er]

http://www.jbweld.com/products/surfa...ns/automotive/

There is all kinds of JBweld ^^ IME the ORIGINAL JB weld is a good product but becuz its a putty what it doesn't do well is flow, so you can try heating it up with the heat gun but its hard to get it into screw holes or probably a delam

No JB in where Britain what a bloomin pity eh? there's that regional thing rearing its head, for gluing outfitting into ww kayaks people used to recommend a certain brand of contact cement that was not available in Canada while they should have just spec'd solvent based CC

Who knew that not everybody lives in downtown colorado?

[1000-oaks]

Buy a box of Monoject plastic syringes cheap on Fleabay. I keep two of them equally-filled with Gflex, which makes it easy to make small batches of accurate 50/50 mix. And since they're inexpensive, you can put mixed epoxy in one to squirt into the bottom of holes or into delam cracks.

[old goat]

Re Titebond--it's wood glue. It sticks to wood. It does seal wood--anyone who has tried to put finish on a place where the glue squeeze-out hasn't been sanded off knows this, although it will probably require more than one application to seal end grain, which will be found in screws holes. It doesn't stick to metal, so it won't protect screws from moisture as has been pointed out (BTW why aren't binding screws stainless steel?). II and III are water resistant or water "proof" although not enough to use underwater, as in a boat hull. It has poor gap-filling properties. It certainly won't tighten loose screw holes or prevent pullout. I don't know why anyone would use it on skis.
That epoxy guide from SVST is great.

[Jonathan S.]

Fuck, HC, you're in a prick fighting mood today. Not me. Six days ago I had a hole sawed out of my skull and my right inner ear and vestibular system removed. I'm a fucking cripple. Easy there boy.

Whoah! I read this quickly at first and thought it was some sort of joke, given the subject matter of drilling and sealing holes [in skis]. Best wishes for a strong recovery!

As for considerably less important matters:
-- The TGR collective has finally weaned me off various forms of wood glue and officially designated ski binding glue. Previously I would sometimes see rust on removed screws, and now no longer, so seems to validate that thesis.
-- I tried Amazing Goop, but the fumes in my workshop were way too strong. The tube now resides in the garage. Seems like good stuff otherwise though.
-- I've been using GE Silicone II glue (glue, not caulk). Its attributes seem perfect for mounting skis, and so far so good.
-- I have been intrigued though by the 3M Marine product line. Big Steve uses 5200 (presumably in its FC version, since otherwise cure time is another week), but seems excessively strong? Hugh says 3200, but that chart under "bonding" just has a blank. Sure seems like 4200 FC would be the best product from that line for binding mounting? And it will stay good after opening by jamming a golf tee down the spout, secured with a rubber band?

[Core Shot]

Here's SVST's Epoxy Chart & Summary by use:

Surprised hard man orange epoxy is not listed there.
That shit is crazy awesome bonding and also flexible.

[coldfeet]

P.S. My personal (and untested) view is that if you don't want to use epoxy for mounting due to concerns about handling risks or the permancent of it then probably the best options would be thing like Sikaflex which is a filler / sealer or even a flexible bathroom sealant. Perhaps JBweld is this sort of thing? - I haven't used that as we don't get it this side of the pond.

JB weld is an epoxy with filler with a ~24 hour cure time - the basic JB weld has iron and limestone (!) as filler, the other types of JB weld (for plastic, etc) have different fillers. MSDS's for the different types of JB weld are here: http://www.jbweld.com/msds/. It comes in an old-school package with crazy little testimonial stories about how a housewife in Texas used it to fix a two-ton truck, etc, which adds to the general awesomeness of the product.

As XXX-er said it's kind of thick putty, especially after the half used tubes have sat in my toolbox for several months, and would be sort of a PITA to fill screw holes with. It sticks shit together pretty good, though.

I didn't see reading the thread through how many people have had serious problems using generic fairly-quick-set epoxy. I would think that ultimate strength is not really the issue in this binding screw application, but sealing and resistance to cracking, water intrusion etc.

Best wishes with your recovery, Big Steve.

[critical-motion]

Have used Devcon 2-ton epoxy for countless ski mounts with no rusty screws and the screws require a little force to break loose, but never an excessive amount. seems like a good compromise for binding mounting and is easily found at most hardware stores.

Just pulled bindings from some skis that a shop mounted with wood glue. Screws were rusty and had loosened on their own. Some minor core rot as well; no bueno.

[XXX-er]

back in the day I fixed a broken motor cycle engine case with devcon liquid aluminium where the chain had jumped a tooth and taken out the case between the sprocket and the flywheel.

I aproximated the old curvature of the case and built up many layers of devcon curing it with heat from a trouble light, the cured Devcon files and works much like aluminium ...good stuff !

[d542east]

After reading this thread, I kind of want to re-mount my bindings using epoxy instead of the titebond they were originally mounted with. Would I be able to use the same holes, just adding epoxy when I insert the screws, or would the epoxy not bond to the titebond-filled holes?

This would be on bodacious's with the two layers of metal on top that were mounted about two weeks ago and have a handful of days on them. I do want this mount to last forever because I don't see myself ever selling them. Also, they will see a ton of warm, wet days.

Or am I a making a big deal out of nothing?

[shirk]

What are you guys doing to your JB weld that you can't manage to flow some into a screw hole? It's a bit thick but not so thick you can't work with it.

I used it to fill some holes when I moved some bindings two weeks ago and had no problem filling the old screw holes with it. A tooth pic work it down into the hole is all that is needed. Give it half hour to start setting up then a Olaf blade to trim it down flat to the topsheet.

gritter are you positive that the PU adhesive of Gorilla Glue does not create a seal? If not I'll stop using it and switch to 5 min epoxy for mounts.

[gritter]

gritter are you positive that the PU adhesive of Gorilla Glue does not create a seal? If not I'll stop using it and switch to 5 min epoxy for mounts.

99.9% positive.

[XXX-er]

What are you guys doing to your JB weld that you can't manage to flow some into a screw hole? It's a bit thick but not so thick you can't work with it.

I used it to fill some holes when I moved some bindings two weeks ago and had no problem filling the old screw holes with it. A tooth pic work it down into the hole is all that is needed. Give it half hour to start setting up then a Olaf blade to trim it down flat to the topsheet.

gritter are you positive that the PU adhesive of Gorilla Glue does not create a seal? If not I'll stop using it and switch to 5 min epoxy for mounts.

JB is putty so it doesn't flow so you have to cram it into the hole with a nail but why not just use something that flows ?

Do people buy all these different glues for home use? How it works around the mancave is I am not going to stock one of every kind of glue so I buy a way bigger batch of slowset than I can use ... I got a hammer and everything looks like as nail

I also have some solvent based contact cement, gorrila glue and some aqua seal but slow set and aqua seal are the adhesive I use most

BTW Gorrila glue or epoxy is what DPS recommends, I believe wood glue voids the warranty

[SB]

been using West Systems since 1982, good stuff

[Vinman]

^^JB weld comes in putty and a thick 2 part liquid.

[DasBlunt]

How come skis do not have inserts?

Shop mount conspiracy ?

[coldfeet]

How come skis do not have inserts?

Shop mount conspiracy ?

Binding mount patterns aren't standardized, never have been, and mount bindings in a different place depending on foot length, which is less of a problem for boards. Patterns often different even within a brand, for demo bindings, etc.

For a while K2 made tele skis with inserts for the most popular tele screw pattern, those worked fine, but if you want to use a binding with a different screw pattern you have to drill anyway.

Dynafit makes skis with plastic inserts with their own binding pattern for weight weenie and conspiracy reasons (must use Dynafit bindings). I have never touched these but the descriptions make them seem sketch. Today on Wildsnow there's a story about skiing off Rainier on one ski after pulling those inserts out, ugh. Makes epoxy look like the least of your worries.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

How come skis do not have inserts?

Shop mount conspiracy ?

I always knew you were retarded but the profundity of your disability escaped me 'til now.

[Alpinord]

Surprised hard man orange epoxy is not listed there.
That shit is crazy awesome bonding and also flexible.

The Hardman Very High Peel Strength is a flexible, tough and durable vibration resistant epoxy adhesive. Flexible, tough and Durable. Excellent general purpose adhesive that bonds to most anything. Long work life. Typical uses include repairing of sports equipment, marine, aircraft, auto, truck and tractor parts.

• High peel and shear strength
• Bonds to polystyrene, ABS nylon, metal, wood, masonry and rubber
• Excellent adhesive for grinding wheel hubs, door and window gaskets
• Working time: 3 hours
• Handling strength: 18 hours
• Color: Grey
• Viscosity: Soft paste

The chart has not been updated in a few years and we order it elsewhere. I'm liking the hardman orange as well for the same reasons. The packets are nice if you only need a little epoxy at a time. It flows and seals well leaving a high confidence bond. Definitely use a toothpick after letting the bubbles rise to the top to pop them and assure the epoxy coats the sides of holes. A syringe is cleaner and the tip can also be used like a toothpick.

[WAlove]

1) ski industry adopts a standard pattern
2) build plates for toe and heel to work with any binding and bsl using genius computer machine