The Epoxy Thread

[GeezerSteve]

Your lawn chair does not experience temperature cycling and mechanical cycling anything like your skis do. Titebond II is fine stuff for some static applications, but sucks for ski binding screws in a ski core, which is a dynamic connection and thus subject to flex. The key for screws in ski cores is that the adhesive is flexible and sticks to both the core and the screw. Titebond II gets brittle and thus shears off the screw, allowing water to get to the threads and, way worse, the core. Titebond III is worse.

[Chainsaw_Willie]

I'd suggest "filling old screw holes" to be higher performance than "screw sealing"

Why?

Objective of both is to prevent water from getting into the ski. Old screw hole doesn't have much in the way of stresses. Screws OTOH are stressed, plus anything that helps retain the screw/bonds it to the ski is a good thing. So, while simple silicone will plug an old screw hole AND would also work for sealing a binding screw, it won't really help pull out strength or do anything to prevent the screw from working loose over time. I'd think an epoxy would be a better idea if aiding screw retention is part of the objective.

As for the wood glue vs. water thing - I'm with Steve. The screws that came out of my touring skis just a couple days ago were all rusty and I used tite bond as recommended by many.

I don't really care if it's "user error" or not. The fact is, that doesn't happen when other products are used so why not just use another product and eliminate the possibility of "user error?"

[Hugh Conway]

Your lawn chair does not experience temperature cycling anything like your skis do

You can't be fucking serious. Plenty of people happily use TB3 for wooden surfboards which get way more temp cycling and stress cycling than your fucking ski screws. sorry, I think your whole failure mode analysis is bullshit. but really this is the kind of assinnine faptastic gear queery that makes TGR stupid. Go buy some 3M 4200 (is that what you are talking about Steve? comeon, spec the fucking product, please) for $8 a tube that's disposible.

[GeezerSteve]

Completely serious. IME, all Titebond screw mounts rust, often lead to compromised cores. But, hey, use whatever you want.

As for the wood glue vs. water thing - I'm with Steve. The screws that came out of my touring skis just a couple days ago were all rusty and I used tite bond as recommended by many.

More evidence. I'd be surprised if they weren't rusty.

Will, you can borrow my tube of 3M adhesive, especially if you have any inkling of taking my fat ass for a walk as I continue my vestibular rehab. Hope to be touring by April or May, maybe sooner if things go well.

[Hugh Conway]

Completely serious

How many temp cycles do your skis get Big Steve? Every day used is probably 2-3. Unless you throw your skis in an oven (which one of the yuppie black roof boxes might qualify as) the ramp rat will be pretty low. How many days do you use them? And for fucks sake SPEC THE FUCKING ADHESIVE!

[Chainsaw_Willie]

Completely serious. IME, all Titebond screw mounts rust, often lead to compromised cores. But, hey, use whatever you want.

More evidence. I'd be surprised if they weren't rusty.

Will, you can borrow my tube of 3M adhesive, especially if you have any inkling of taking my fat ass for a walk as I continue my vestibular rehab. Hope to be touring by April or May, maybe sooner if things go well.

Actually Steve, I was planning on coming by your place this afternoon since I didn't make it over the weekend. That's great news!

And yeah, which adhesive are you referring to? I have the 5200 and that shit makes a big mess.

[GeezerSteve]

I'd greatly appreciate that, Will. You can bring Jack if you can keep him from getting under my feet. Give me a call or text with an idea of when you'll be hear. I've got post-walk beers.

How many temp cycles do your skis get Big Steve?

Every time I drive them from sea level inside to mountains and back, i.e., 150+ cycles per year. Actually, add a bunch of days to that for spring tours that start 25F boiler plate and warm up to 50F corn. Mechanical cycling happens thousands of times per season, virtually every turn, especially with Dynafits.

I'm not talking theory here. Strictly observation. Titebond II results in rusty screws. 3M Marine or a good flexible epoxy: no rust. It's that simple.

I have the 5200 and that shit makes a big mess.

Yep, that's the stuff. And it's a big mess because it sticks do damn well to screws and cores. No tendency to peel, which is what makes it such great binding screw adhesive. Glad I took MO's advice on this a couple years ago.

[Hugh Conway]

Every time I drive them from sea level to mountains and back, i.e., 150+ days per year.

So - half the cycling of furniture per year, and much less total in the lifetime

And I havent' had problems - strictly observations. Fuck, I haven't had shit rusted that bad when it was mounted naked.

WAIT - you use 5200? That shit's a bitch to remove. Dear God why unless you want to mount your bindings permanently? Use 3200, it's designed for things that have to be replaced, eventually. 5200 is permanent.

[GeezerSteve]

Why do you move your lawn furniture from inside sea level to outside mountains 150X per year? Strange life you live bro. And lucky as hell too if you Titebond II screw-ins aren't rusty.

3M Marine 5200 is what I'm talking about.

[Hugh Conway]

Why do you move your lawn furniture from inside sea level to outside mountains 150X per year?

They go from daily max to daily min, every day. More if you consider solar heating. Broader range than even the vaunted "PNW mountains". Like I said, this is dickswinging about who can come up with the most uselessly burly ski mount.

For either product adhesion decreases not long after opening the tube (specs 24hrs I believe), use it quick

[XXX-er]

If your epoxy goobered up with water - the failure was with you, not it. If you want a tutorial on quality fixes for skis - have the fuck at it. Sorry I think for fixing shit myself $40 a can for 12oz, of which most will be wasted, is fucking retarded. I've used "high quality" epoxy left over from boat projects (which was still fresh and good) and it wasn't much different than the "5-minute" stuff. Given you can get West in blister packs for $10 I'm even more baffled by your incoherent ramblings as part of the Canadian 5 cent army of stupid.

well the glob of 5 min was gona get tossed so I stuck it on the end of a paddle to see what would happen, it sat there getting wet and flacid which didn't impress me BUT if 5min epoxy impresses you, lets see ya put your next boat together with it and get back to us how that works out?

I use the good stuff because it works better, a batch gets used to fix all kinds of things because it is the best period which is more importnt than saving a little $, oddly you admit 5min is different, but it wasn't much different, so what exactly does that mean ?

It is NOT a given that everyone can get 10$ blister packs of West, most of us who live in a small town can't get it we can't even get 8/12 oz batches SO we need to buy it when we get to a larger center, which is why the regional availability issue is a key part of the thread and by the time I buy mail/web order 10$ blister packs of West a few times aren't I at 40$, so does that make the 8/12 oz batch or the 10$ blister pack cheaper and ...what good is cheap if something falls apart?



This must be the point where I am suposed to say shit about America, something mean about your mom or potificate on why you attack people possibly due to a small/limp dick but I don't really want to go there, I would prefer to just disagree and then list the reasons for a POV and I don't get why you are apologizing for your POV ... but whatever eh?

[GeezerSteve]

Like I said, this is dickswinging about who can come up with the most uselessly burly ski mount.

Nah, avoiding rusty binding mount screws and compromised cores aint uselessly burly. Maybe not a problem down your way. Big issue up here where we do half of our touring days in May, June and July. IME, flexible epoxy works as well as the 3M 5200 for sealing, i.e., never seen rust with either, but I like the ability to pull my screws in the field if I need to do so and that can be a PITA with long set epoxy unless you are carrying a stove.

[Hugh Conway]

Maybe not a problem down your way. Big issue up here where we do half of our touring days in May, June and July.

asshole - I'm more than familiar with the PNW but keep playing to the rubes. Like I said - mount with an expensive product with a short open shelf life that's a pain to remove (if you get a good bond) if you want. I think it's stupid. That you refuse to differentiate between other products (1, 2 and 3) suggests that's the desire. Whatever, it's TGR

[GeezerSteve]

3M 5200 is easy screw removal, inexpensive and has a long open tube shelf life. My current tube was opened a year ago. Haven't tried it, eh?

[Hugh Conway]

3M 5200 is easy screw removal, inexpensive and has a long tube shelf life. My current tube was opened a year ago. Haven't tried it, eh?

I've used it for boats, wooden surfboards and other repairs. If your screws are removing "easy" it isn't getting a good bond to your material due to either poor prep (some metals should be treated before) or because it's degraded (again, I quoted the manufg's suggested open shelf time).
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3...AdhesiveGuide/

[GeezerSteve]

Fuck, HC, you're in a prick fighting mood today. Not me. Six days ago I had a hole sawed out of my skull and my right inner ear and vestibular system removed. I'm a fucking cripple. Easy there boy.

Great bond, actually. Tenacious stuff, doesn't peel, sticks to the screw and the core, flexes, fills the gap. Proof is 100% effective seal, no rust, screw stays in without need to tighten per dozens of mounts. "Easy removal" = in the field without necessity of heat. I helicoil all holes my touring boards for ease of field repair, so I'm dealing mostly with steel-on-Al alloy connection for my skis, but I've had 100% sealing with 3M 5200 for dozens of screw-in-wood core mounts. I'm sure there are other flexible one-part adhesives that work as I'm not telling what to use. I'm just saying what I know: every Titebond II bonded binding screw I've ever seen rusted like helll.

ETA: Shelf life of 3M is long if you cap it with a golf tee compressed with a rubber band. well. Titebond II aint one of them IME.

[Hugh Conway]

Three days ago I had a hole sawed out of my skull and my right ear and vestibular system removed. I'm a fucking cripple. Easy there boy.

Ouch. Hope you mend well

[shirk]

I mount bindings with Gorilla Glue. Cheap and available at any hardware store.

Pretty sure somewhere in a thread the vaulted Mr. Olsen said it's the good stuff.

So far no rusted screws. Bond seems a bit tighter than the Winterstager glue I was using previously.

[splat]

I sure hope they used the 3M E-2013 to put it all back together, Big Steve.

Like I said, having had two tympanoplasty(s), I know the particular throb of that procedure. I'm surprised you can type!

[Alpinord]

Here's SVST's Epoxy Chart & Summary by use:

[the Cock]

disposible.

hehe lol

[gritter]

A few points worth making in no particular order:

1) You need to understand what you are using a glue for - stuff like titebondIII says it is waterproof... and that is true - but it is a waterproof glue, i.e. it will hold two things together and not let go if it gets wet. However it will not seal those items from water like epoxy will. This point seems to be the main point of misunderstanding in the thread above. It is also the reason that wood glues in general (waterproof or not) are a poor choice for sealing a binding screw in a hole - it may be waterproof but it wont protect the screw, or the core from water penetration.

2) If you don't want to use epoxy for mounting screws then use something that provides a seal to stop water damaging the screw / core. The screw holds the binding to the ski and does not need the adhesive to hold it in - however if water rot's the core or rusts the screw then you will get a pull out. Wood glues, the titebonds and PU glues such as gorilla glue do not provide a seal.

3) Epoxy bonds by filling spaces / surface imperfections and creates a mechanical bond. It generally seals the surfaces as well and so is a good choice for sealing screws albeit that it it a bit harder to get them out (although not much).

4) Epoxy sold as adhesive often comes with fillers that make it stronger in shear and also more viscous. Epoxy with fillers are better for sealing / basic bonds such as screws and will fill voids better but are not so good for something like a delam repair where you want just the low viscosity epoxy which tends to wick well into cracks.

5) If you use a ‘pure’ epoxy (such as west systems) for screw sealing then you may find (depending on your core) that the epoxy can soak into the core leaving a poor seal around a screw. For mounting screws you are best to use a filler in Wests OR preseal the core by dabbing a bit of epoxy into the holes and waiting for it to dry before adding the screws with a second application of epoxy.

6) Most (all?) epoxys are more than capable of dealing with the flex of a ski - no need to go to the (much more expensive) Gflex option. That really is overkill.

7) If you are using epoxy on skis, pay a bit of attention to temperature changes. If the temperature of the ski rises significantly (e.g. you just brought it in from the cold) it will 'breath out' blowing bubbles in any wet epoxy which may destroy any seal / decrease the strength of a bond – seriously! If the core temperature drops then the reverse will happen and a core is more likely to suck the epoxy into it causing a dry bond. I have seen a boat blow huge bubbles under a fibreglass skin when the temperature rose before it had cured.
Sorry - those points are not structured that well, but hopefully useful nonetheless

G.

[Hugh Conway]

Bond seems a bit tighter than the Winterstager glue I was using previously.

not that it matters much, but here's the MSDS for the Wintersteiger Binding Glue:
http://www.wintersteiger.com/upload/...55-530-290.pdf

It's water-based

[Chainsaw_Willie]

Good post gritter. From where are you drawing these conclusions? Not challenging them, just wondering how you came across this knowledge.

Also, let's say you're installing inserts into a ski and because you hand-drilled the holes there was a little wobble in the drill bit which resulted in a slightly oversized hole and a resulting loose fit of the insert. You want those things to stay put so what kind of glue/epoxy/sealer do you use? I'm guessing you could also beef the bond between insert and ski up with shredded steel wool or fiberglass, but what is the best stuff to not only seal around the insert but to bond it to the ski as strongly as possible without worrying about water intrusion or the stuff becoming brittle and cracking/falling out?

[shirk]

not that it matters much, but here's the MSDS for the Wintersteiger Binding Glue:
http://www.wintersteiger.com/upload/...55-530-290.pdf

It's water-based

I mounted 120 pairs of skis for the Canadian military with that stuff. Didn't get a angry letter about rusted screws or tear outs. But I suspect those skis got loaded into a supply container after the Olympics and have never seen the light of day since.

So who wants to pull all the MSDS sheets on the above epoxy's and compare the actual formula of them and see what's marketing vs science?