NW Backcountry ski - Nunataq/Hi5/Praxis BC/Backdrop/Justice/Charger or Hoji?

[auvgeek]

I can't seem to find a direct comparison of Freerides to BCs from someone who has skied both. Can someone remember where to find such a comparison?

Call/email Keith at Praxis. He'll hook you up with the info you need, and it's always nice to hear it from the horse's mouth.

Big Steve has a point, as usual. But it just depends on what you want the ski for. I loved my 181 K2 Hardsides as a do-everything touring ski. Then I added a 191 Lhasa Fat for pow touring and then a 178 Ski Trab for spring skiing.

[ryan b]

hillmap, have you had the green justices on icy/windblown steeps or anything else to test out the edges?

I haven't been on enough other skis this fat to have a good basis for comparison and tend to avoid icy steeps. I'm also on the 175's, pretty much exclusively tour and have a less aggressive skiing style then most mags so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Since I got them last spring have skied the Justice off a few mountains with windslab at the top and toboggan runs at the bottom (Saint Helens and a bunch of minor things in the cascades and the bitterroots all via mellow routes) and they work well for my stile which is to pick my way down the gross snow and open it up for the good bits.

They have a 30+ meter radius so you probably aren't going to want to carve them in tight places but they aren't at all hooky. Even in 175 they go straight when I want them to and pivot and skid really predictably so I end up doing that a lot. The relatively straight edge gives you lots of contact with the snow and is nice to saw back and forth while skinning etc. I'm sure Praxis skis with side wall construction etc have better edge hold and are more suited to carving. Plus praxis are made in USA and hopefully more durable. The top sheets on my justice are chipping and fully peeling up in places but i've been running them into lots of rocks and things...p tex is getting worked but the edges haven't dented.

Steep clearance pricing and a friend (who reps for BD sometimes) recommendation was my big reason for getting the Justice but i've been really happy with them and don't feel terrible about running them into things thanks to the price. Bd sponsored skier Steve Romeo of teontat.com (RIP) also recommended the 175 carbon justice with lite boots as a great ski mountaineering combo a few times on his blog:

https://www.google.com/search?q=site...at.com+Justice

I think pro ski in seattle had the BD demo fleet for the north west last year and probably does again.

[andysk]

Thanks for the feedback on your experience with the Justices, Quadzilla.

Big Steve, you bring up a great point. Yeah, I have in the back of my mind that I'll probably end up picking up a 90something ski for corn later on. Might be something I can find used. In the meantime the Praxis BC at 106 underfoot could be close enough to 100? I'll consider the 180 length based on your feedback, though since it's a 5-point design there is substantially less effective edge than something like a coomback in similar length - that's my only concern.

Also, my crew tends to slow down in the BC too - ripping big and fast is not really a priority for this ski for me. being confident in the edges on variable steeps is, but I've already made that point a bunch of times in this thread

auvgeek, I just got an email back from keith so I'll see what he has to say.

Fatypus d-sender is another interesting option, wideish at 144/112/130 but still light at 3855g in a 184.

Anyone have experience with the d-sender?

[GeezerSteve]

Chainsaw Willie skied a couple years on the original non-rocker-tip D-Sender. I think he had DH bindings on them. Will consistently said he liked them.

If you are looking for a ski with those dims, Voile Charger in 171cm (3260g) or 181cm (3690g) would be lighter options. And, believe it or not, 171cm Charger would be ample for most 175 lb. tourists.

I have in the back of my mind that I'll probably end up picking up a 90something ski for corn later on. Might be something I can find used.

Really no need to go >90mm for post-consolidation touring skis. 88mm waist, e.g., Atomic Kailas or K2 Mt. Baker Superlights and 78mm-ish waisted skis, e.g., K2 Shuksan or even 70mm waisted K2 8611 Superlights are tried-and-true spring/summer touring PNW touring skis. Last time I checked there were such skis available used and/or for deals, e.g. telemarkdown. The bigger $$ issue is a second pair of tech bindings.

This thread gets me thinking. I've had the PNW 3-touring ski quiver (as auvgeek describes) for while. I'd get by fine reducing it to 2 skis, i.e., Chargers and my Trabs for spring, but if I had to have only one touring ski there's no doubt I'd go with my Coombacks or something else around 100mm waist, e.g., W99.

ETA: Praxis makes some beautiful skis.

[AKbruin]

6'0, 185-195 lbs (depending on how much weight-lifting, bc, mtn biking I'm doing at the time). I have the first generation of the Backcountries in a 190 cm. [Edit: I live in Tahoe and BC ski here, the Eastern Sierra, and places like Lassen and Shasta, generally from November to June. I do a lot of pre-work powder tours, which only last a couple hours. I also will do longer tours and the occasional multi-day tour. I've probably gotten around 100 bc days on these skis in the past few years. I've previous used 185 Atomic Janaks with Dynafits, 190 Movement Goliaths with Dukes, and 188 Made'ens with Naxos. I don't harbor any illusions about being the most knowledgeable person about ski tech though.]

I love these skis as a single, do-everything ski. They are great in deep powder. They also work well enough for long and overnight tours in the Sierra during the spring.

I think Big Steve makes a great point about both length and width. I think 105-108mm underfoot is about the widest I would go for an all-arounder. Wider than that would kind of suck for longer, Spring tours.

As for length, I generally like the 190cm. That said, for spring skiing and ski mountaineering, I'd prefer something around 180-185cm, regardless of he actual running length. It's amazing how the extra 10-5mm seems to want catch on every rock in tight spots, and 190cm is less than ideal for doing dozens of kick turns in steeper, icier conditions.

(What I'm saying that I'd really like a 95mm-ish, 183-ish separate setup for certain tours.)

In sum, unless a majority of your touring will be done in the spring, will involve really long days, or involve serious mountaineering, it's hard to go wrong with the either the 180cm or 190cm BCs as a single setup.

[auvgeek]

The bigger $$ issue is a second pair of tech bindings.

Inserts, my friend. (Says the gearwhore with five pairs of FKS 180s and four tech binders.)

[indyjones]

Last year I skied some Hi5 188...didn't like them too soft and hooky even after detuning. This year went to some custom Praxis BC 180 medium/stiff and this is the ski for me in the PNW. I liked 'em a lot. Stable, predicable, and good float/planing. I went with the 180s for lower ski weight and my ski style with help from Keith. As per Big Steve's point with PNW BC quiver I've got some logic-Xs for spring/mountaineering you will want something narrower/lighter/shorter for May + tours.

[andysk]

Thanks again guys.

Big steve, I belive what you're saying about widths for post-consolidation. I can pick up a pair like that for relatively cheap later, and yes auvgeek use inserts to swap my speed radicals. This means that the pair I'm purchasing now don't have to be good for spring/summer touring. What is the "3 ski quiver?" I looked back but didn't see what you were referring to from auvgeek.

AKBruin, very valuable input, thanks. You're an inch taller and 10-20lb heavier, and I was still leaning toward the 190 BC, but what you say about tight spots and sketchy kick turns gives me pause - I seem to find myself in those situations most every time I go out.

indyjones, thanks for the input on the Hi5s and comparison with the BCs, very valuable. Have you skied other praxis? What's your height, weight, and style?

I've narrowed my list to the following, all Praxis:
180 131/106/121 133 sidecut length BC 8.2lb (medium flex)
190 131/106/121 143 sidecut length BC 8.7lb (medium flex)
187 139/117/125 143 sidecut length Concept carbon layup 9.06lb (medium-stiff flex)

Concept is cool in that it has a stiffer flex and wider profile. Probably too much overlap with my bentchetlers, but it is a really appealing ski to me. It seems to be keith's primary recommendation (corresponding with him) and bet it would be more fun in soft days, maybe better as a winter touring ski. Not great as a spring touring ski, but again I'll plan to pick up something else for post-consolidation. Heavier, but not much unless I am comparing with the 180 BC. Weight difference probably not a big deal with dynafiddles.

[kevino]

180 BC then put insets in your bentchetlers and tour with those in the deep winter

Edit to add: Not sure if Steve, Zak and I are on the same page for a 3 ski quiver in the PNW but my idea and what I have/working towards is:

Super deep fun days: 190 praxis pow boards
3 season/new snow touring and winter/pre consolidation touring: 187 fat bros
spring/summer mountaineering/long distance/post consolidation touring: something like praxis yet or dynafit mustagh (the two i'm considering)

[auvgeek]

What is the "3 ski quiver?" I looked back but didn't see what you were referring to from auvgeek.

1. Pow touring 2. regular midwinter touring, 3. spring, post-consolidation touring. Like Steve said, you can combine 1 and 2.

You could always sell the chetlers, buy the Concepts (or RX) and mount with a dynalook/sollyfit plate, and then buy an ultralight spring ski. This might be what I'd do, but maybe you like the Chetlers a bunch. Bewarned: the Concepts seem pretty polarizing— some people love them, while others hate the wavy sidecut and odd camber.

Re: length, I think 190 is a perfectly reasonable length for a midwinter pow/all-round stick. Many of us (I'm looking at you, kevino) have done some rather sketchy stuff on skis 115 underfoot and ~190 in length - you just have to get a bit better at kickturns. And make sure you buy ski crampons for them.

PS.There's also a pair of 188 DPS Wailer 105s in gear swap that would be pretty excellent for most things PNW.

[kevino]

^I'm going to take this as a compliment.

[auvgeek]

^I'm going to take this as a compliment.

Absolutely a compliment! (Sorry if that wasn't clear.)

And it's the skinning that's sketchy (to me), not the skiing.

[hoarhey]

6'0, 185-195 lbs (depending on how much weight-lifting, bc, mtn biking I'm doing at the time). I have the first generation of the Backcountries in a 190 cm. [Edit: I live in Tahoe and BC ski here, the Eastern Sierra, and places like Lassen and Shasta, generally from November to June. I do a lot of pre-work powder tours, which only last a couple hours. I also will do longer tours and the occasional multi-day tour. I've probably gotten around 100 bc days on these skis in the past few years. I've previous used 185 Atomic Janaks with Dynafits, 190 Movement Goliaths with Dukes, and 188 Made'ens with Naxos. I don't harbor any illusions about being the most knowledgeable person about ski tech though.]

I love these skis as a single, do-everything ski. They are great in deep powder. They also work well enough for long and overnight tours in the Sierra during the spring.

I think Big Steve makes a great point about both length and width. I think 105-108mm underfoot is about the widest I would go for an all-arounder. Wider than that would kind of suck for longer, Spring tours.

As for length, I generally like the 190cm. That said, for spring skiing and ski mountaineering, I'd prefer something around 180-185cm, regardless of he actual running length. It's amazing how the extra 10-5mm seems to want catch on every rock in tight spots, and 190cm is less than ideal for doing dozens of kick turns in steeper, icier conditions.

(What I'm saying that I'd really like a 95mm-ish, 183-ish separate setup for certain tours.)

In sum, unless a majority of your touring will be done in the spring, will involve really long days, or involve serious mountaineering, it's hard to go wrong with the either the 180cm or 190cm BCs as a single setup.

Sounds like a pair of 182 Yetis for you possibly???

[kevino]

Absolutely a compliment! (Sorry if that wasn't clear.)

And it's the skinning that's sketchy (to me), not the skiing.

Dude no worries! I figured as much. Just adding some more stoke to the fire!

[toast2266]

Concept is cool in that it has a stiffer flex and wider profile. Probably too much overlap with my bentchetlers, but it is a really appealing ski to me. It seems to be keith's primary recommendation (corresponding with him) and bet it would be more fun in soft days, maybe better as a winter touring ski. Not great as a spring touring ski, but again I'll plan to pick up something else for post-consolidation. Heavier, but not much unless I am comparing with the 180 BC. Weight difference probably not a big deal with dynafiddles.

I picked up some concepts this year (187 carbons, medium stiff, like keith is recommending to you), and I've got a bit of time on them both touring and inbounds. I am completely blown away by how versatile that ski is. It is better in tight spots than pretty much any other comparable ski I've been on (including some that are significantly shorter). The low weight means they gets knocked around a bit if you don't stay on top of them, but they're stiff enough that you can go fast if you want to. They're not "traditional," but if they're the sort of ski you're looking for, I highly recommend them.

As a side note, I can give a real world confirmation of the 9.06 lb weight and for whatever it's worth, they feel really light while touring.

[AKbruin]

Here's my ideal three-ski BC quiver:

(1) 187 Concepts or 192 Line Influence 115s w/ Dukes: Aggressive BC (hucking, etc.), sled-skiing, short deep days.
(2) 190 Praxis Backcountries with Plum Guides: Everything else except long tours and ski mountaineering.
(3) 182 Yetis with Plum Guides: Long tours, spring tours, ski mountaineering

I currently only have #2.

Sounds like a pair of 182 Yetis for you possibly???

Exactly. The Manaslus also look nice. But ever since I did broke my Atomic Janaks about 3000' and miles away from the trailhead with 35 lbs of gear (see here), I've been wary of too-light skis. I didn't like the way the Janaks skied either.

[Edit: You interested in an Eastern Sierra trip this year, hoarhey? I'm thinking of taking a week of in late April.]

[Chainsaw_Willie]

Chainsaw Willie skied a couple years on the original non-rocker-tip D-Sender. I think he had DH bindings on them. Will consistently said he liked them.

If you are looking for a ski with those dims, Voile Charger in 171cm (3260g) or 181cm (3690g) would be lighter options. And, believe it or not, 171cm Charger would be ample for most 175 lb. tourists.

....

This doesn't really add to this conversation but what the hell, I'm bored and saw my name.

Yeah, I have the '09/'10 D-Senders mounted with S914s. They're my go-to resort ski these days though they're light enough that I've considered trying Dynafits on them.

That was the last year of the fully cambered construction, the next year they added tip rocker and the year after that they added some tail rise and tweaked the tip rocker. They're still the same dimensions and probably same construction.

Even in the "old fashioned" construction I really like 'em. Great ski for charging around the resort. They float decently, hold an edge on all but the really hard stuff and plow through cut up crud, chunder and crust like it doesn't exist.

I'd sure like to give those Praxis BCs a try...

I dunno what the deal with the Nunataqs is. Maybe they're just so new that no one's really tried them. I did see a guy on them up on Skyline Ridge a few weeks ago but didn't get a chance to ask him about them. I considered them but decided on a lighter option - G3 Zenoxides. another advantage to the G3s is they're almost exactly the same shape as my old gotamas so the skins from the gots fit perfectly.

[andysk]

Thanks for the PNW quiver ideas guys, super helpful.

180 BC then put insets in your bentchetlers and tour with those in the deep winter

This is probably the smart move. So tempted by the concepts though, with their split personality.

You could always sell the chetlers, buy the Concepts (or RX) and mount with a dynalook/sollyfit plate, and then buy an ultralight spring ski. This might be what I'd do, but maybe you like the Chetlers a bunch. Bewarned: the Concepts seem pretty polarizing— some people love them, while others hate the wavy sidecut and odd camber.

Yeah, I do like the chetlers a lot. They are definitely over 10lb skis, though. I wish I could ski some concepts, but I have a hunch I would like them a lot.

toast thanks for the feedback on the concepts. How are they better for tight spots than some shorter skis? are they pivoty? What about steep jump turns?

Zenoxides are an interesting option as well, but I don't think they are lighter than nunataqs - 3620g@178 according to wildsnow. I think some of G3's claimed weights are optimistic (District also)

Here are some weights I did yesterday at Pro Ski in Seattle. This is on a gram scale, no bathroom scale bs:

Wailer 105 Pure 188 131/105/119 3450g
Nunataq 186 139/107/123 3675g
Huascaran 186 135/114/124 3850g
Wailer 112rp pure 190 141/112/128 3850g
Dynastar Cham 107 HM 184 137/107/121 3950g
RMU Apostle 185 132/105/114 3950g
Wootest 1.0 187 124/113/116 4010g

The RMU apostle 185 seems similar to the wailer 112 but with mellower rocker and narrower. I'm wary of the 17.3m sidecut as the wailer was too whippy for me.

Cham 107 high mountains are light enough and would be good on icy steeps I'm sure but tail seems pretty traditional which I don't think would work as well with my skiing style.

Nunataqs and wailer 105s are darn light!

[toast2266]

toast thanks for the feedback on the concepts. How are they better for tight spots than some shorter skis? are they pivoty? What about steep jump turns?

If you keep your weight centered, they're super pivoty - like a reverse/reverse ski. The subtle reverse camber / reverse sidecut that's underfoot makes a much more noticeable difference than you would expect just from looking at them. But if you keep your weight more forward and pressure the tips, they'll hold an edge just like any traditionally shaped ski (or sometimes even better - you can get a lot of edge grip out of them considering their width). I haven't found myself in any situations with them that required super committing jump turns, but it doesn't seem like it would be much of a problem. They're really easy to swing around.

[andysk]

I pulled the trigger on some carbon 187 concepts today based partly on all of the feedback from this thread, so thanks to all that contributed. I am going to mount them with some dynalook or sollyfit plates and use speed radicals on them for touring.

I'll update this thread when I have skied them!

Much Appreciated,

Andy

[toast2266]

I think you're going to like them. The more time I spend on mine, the more I'm convinced of their awesomeness.

[andysk]

Thanks toast. Keith says the protest is a better powder ski, so I hope I don't miss that when conditions are great, but I think the concepts will be fun through a lot of wild BC conditions. Looking forward to trying them in the resort too.

[AlpenDude]

Yo Andysk,

I'm curious to hear how this will turn out for you.
Me: 5'10'' 150# riding 183cm bentchetler for lift accessed pow skiing in the PNW.

I really like the bentchetlers and have wanted the same ski to be shrunk in all proportions for a bc setup (dynafit). The bentchetler really fits my ski style but I feel it's a too wide for the variation in conditions one will encounter here. For now I'm leaving the alpine binders on them.

Currently I'm running 178cm Wailer112 hybrid with dynafits for most of my touring days. This set up is super light and amazing for the up, I use it mid-winter and for the volcano season. While it skis great in pow and firm planar terrain, I find it's lacking in the many other conditions (crud, refrozen, bumpy terrain, etc.). Maybe it's a mixture of the shorter length, light weight tips, and lack of dampness. Next I will mount my old 188cm S7 with dynafits. This set up will definitely be heavier for the up, but I'm curios to see if it makes up for what I'm missing on wailers- variable crud.

Please share your experience with the Concepts.

[Shorty_J]

Yes, I was talking about the Praxis BC's. I'm 5'10" 180 and I had 180's. They were my non-powder touring ski, but I skied them in untracked snow a handful of times. I'd go 190 for your purposes.

I bought these skis from him, and they even handle firm groomers well with Dynafit Vertical bindings and TLT5 boots. I would have no worries taking this ski somewhere where edge hold was required.

[kidwoo]

WooTest will be better in pow, but I'd worry about edge hold on firm, steep snow.

Not even close to an issue with as sharp as praxis sends their skis out. I'd just say between those two it would be more of a question of how you want to ski harder snow and how you want to ski powder and powder like substances. If you are hard shin driver, the BC is your ski. If you want about the best slidy slarvy turns in soft stuff with a ski that straightlines really well with a huge radius, get the wootest. I still say the BC is a better 'every conditions ski'. But for heavy deep wet snow......that's what the wootest is made for. Neither skis suck in it, one's just better. And on harder snow or corn.....switch the order.