NW Backcountry ski - Nunataq/Hi5/Praxis BC/Backdrop/Justice/Charger or Hoji?

[andysk]

I'm looking for a ski for human-powered pow slaying and couloir hunting in the cascades and BC coast range. This means heavier pow and lots of odd variable conditions, but this ski is not for the resort. This ski will be mounted with dynafits and skied with Scarpa Maestrale RSes.

Me: 5'11" 175lb 33yo, Skiing for 28yr, Grew up in CO but in Seattle now. Mostly interested in human powered skiing now, looking for aesthetic steep lines.

I have 183 bentchetlers and I love that I can get my weight forward even in deep pow, and also love the pivot-ability of them in contrast to older school skis, gives lots of options in tight trees and steeps stuff. They are trustworthy in about any situation but do have a short running length - I wouldn't want them any shorter and probably would buy the 192 if I did it over again. I've also skied 188 DPS Wailer 112RP Pures in all sorts of conditions. They are an interesting ski and obviously very light, but I found them soft and hooky.

I think all of the skis I'll mention would be pretty good in pow, but I am also concerned with edge hold in nasty situations, e.g. windblown ice or hard stuff at the top of a couloir. Nothing may be fun there but I want to have confidence in my edges there. If the ski is a little odd on hardpack in trade for great pow performance I can handle that, but don't want to feel like I'm on popsicle sticks on steep variable.

Hi5, Justice, Charger, Nunataq, Backdrop, and Praxis BC are all very similar in weight (around 3600g) and probably wide enough, but very different in shapes. Based on my preference for the tail rocker swiveling in the bentchetler I would probably shy away from the Hi5 and Backdrop with flat wide tails. Backdrop and Charger are more appealing shapes but I don't get the sense that either is very good on hard snow. Again, not talking resort snow but variable hard stuff on scary steeps. Praxis BC also look to have a great shape and I like the traditional construction, but they are a little narrower and I don't know much about them - can't see them in person. Nunataq is really a foreign shape to me, long gradual rocker with no camber and full length sidecut. This seems like a great idea but I'm not sure if it allows slarviness like a JJ or bentchetler type shape.

I'm interested in feedback on any of the above skis for PNW type conditions, and particularly whether any or all are good choices for variable steep lines as well as being fun in pow. Also, if I am willing to take a hit of 5-600g, it opens up a lot broader range of options, things like the hoji, movement belafonte, armada norwalk that would probably just slay consistently. At that point though I'm only 300g lighter than my bentchetlers so maybe I should just add dynafit inserts to those... I just have limited experience skiing on lighter skis, and most of these aren't available to demo, so it's hard to tell what I would be giving up.

Thanks in advance,

Andy

[Tutuko]

I'l play,
If you're ok sacrificing a bit of width for edge hold and reliability in variable backcountry conditions (your affinity for couloirs brings surprise mandatory ice to mind...), I would stick with 105-110mm width and be looking for a mid 20s radius, med-stiff flex, tip rocker and minimal tail rocker.

My picks of the bunch would be, in order 186 ON3P Vicik tour, 184 Praxis Freeride or 190 BC (both carbon layup, let size and rocker preference decide)

[TeleThor]

Can't really add anything super useful at this point, but I've got 190 Praxis BCs (Carbon) currently on their way to me. Won't be able to get them on snow for 2-3 weeks, but I'll check back in here when I have. The shape, rocker/camber profile, and what I've heard about flex and quality of construction where all very appealing to me. Planning on primarily touring w/ occasional resort days.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

I can only comment on the Praxis. They're the best bad snow ski I've ever used, and good powder skis too. They'll have no trouble staying on top in coastal snow, and they'll take good care of you when run into an unexpected death crust. They're maneuverable at low speeds, but don't get squirrelly when you open it up. Great product.

[TAFKALVS]

My 186 carbon Lhasa Pows are almost the perfect one ski quiver for the variable bizarreness the cascades can deliver. Light on the up yet stiff and predictable on the down.

[userA]

we already got a real fine andyski here in the pnw!
bF

[Chugachjed]

My 186 carbon Lhasa Pows are almost the perfect one ski quiver for the variable bizarreness the cascades can deliver. Light on the up yet stiff and predictable on the down.

seconded, except 191 fats.

[XavierD]

186 Vicik Tour sounds like it is what you want.

[Theo-san]

I currently ride the justices - decent one ski quiver if you're staying off groomed slopes. They hold edge with confidence at lower speeds in variable conditions, but at higher speeds in variable conditions the flex of the ski, as well as the rocker - when considering ice, works against you (it's not a stiff ski - I'm close to your size and ride the 185). What I'm saying above is that you can probably hop turn your way down some sketchy snow, or get across a steep icy traverse without too much fear - but it's definitely not the best ski for it. So if you're planning on encountering these conditions with regularity, I would probably look for something else. On soft snow you can charge pretty hard with confidence. And by soft snow, I'm including PNW heavy disgusting snow - assuming it's not chopped up. I think for what you're looking to do I would recommend a flat tail and a little stiffer of a ski - I've been lusting after the hi5 myself

ps - if you're interested in some used Justices let me know, I got them/will let them go for cheap if you have the magic BSL

edit: Ski pivots easily in deep snow without a vague/loose feeling when carving that some full rocker/large sidecut rockered skis have.

[Island Bay]

I too can only comment on the Praxis BC, but I can definitely recommend it!
They do VERY well on hard, windblown rubbish; I trust them completely on sketchy traverses and tricky entries to couloirs etc.
In powder, they do much better than their 106 waist would suggest, due to their beautiful, long, gradual rocker.
They are very good skis.

[lingcod]

I've toured all over BC, North Idaho, Western MT in my 188 Coomback / Dynafit / Scarpa Maestrale in all kinds of conditions. Light, solid, plenty of quickness and edge hold when needed and really, really nice in the pow.

[andysk]

Thanks Tutuko - Praxis BC, Freeride, and Vicik Tours I think would indeed serve me well. Anybody know the weight on the Vicik Tour? Lhasa pows are interesting but too $$$. Looking forward to your report TeleThor, though I will probably buy by then!

black diamonds, are you talking about Praxis BCs? And in what length?

flowing alpy, my last name starts with sk so I go by andysk. too bad about the name clash, maybe andyski and I will have to have a race down elevator.

Theo, thanks for your input - it's really helpful. Sounds like the Justices are passable on the sketch but not likely to be as solid as a Praxis BC or Vicik (or Hi5). Which justices are you on, the green/grey/black 2011-2012s with the carbon? I'm at a 288 BSL so pretty darn short for the ski sizes I'm looking at.

Thanks lingcod. I think you're on a great setup but I am attracted to some of the more new school non-flat tail options.

Island Bay, thanks for that - It's exactly what I need to hear. What area do you ski in? Only downside of the Praxis BC I can see is 1. I can't get a deal on them and 2. I'm a bit between sizes as the 180 seems short given the running length ... do they ski short? With the freeride I can get the 184 which seems like an obvious choice given the longer running length. Will have to look up a comparison of those two.

Anybody ski the Wootests and can comment on them for these conditions?

Thanks again,

Andy

[toast2266]

Discount codes on praxis are fairly easy to come by. You should be able to swing 20% off without breaking a sweat. send me a PM if you want a code that may or may not still work.

Wife has Praxis BC's (carbon, 180). They have some of the nicest construction of any ski I've seen - noticeably better than several other small brands that get a lot of love around here. She frequently comments that they plane up on powder impressively well (and that's compared to pontoons, which are pretty much the gold standard of planing quickly and easily). I haven't skied them though, so just hearsay. At your size, I'd go 190 cm's. With the amount of tip rocker they have, they'll be totally manageable.

[auvgeek]

Anybody ski the Wootests and can comment on them for these conditions?

Nah, Kidwoo don't know nothin' bout that. http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...Kidwoo-Woo-2-0

I'd say 190 Praxis BC for your purposes. WooTest will be better in pow, but I'd worry about edge hold on firm, steep snow. 187 Lhasa Fat would also be an excellent choice but a little on the pricey side, as you mentioned. Vicik Tour will be a little heavier and damper, probably unnecessarily so if you're not using them for the resort too.

[alkos]

I've been looking for a similar ski.... the Blizzard Cochise has been high on my list - I haven't skied it, but everybody seems pretty happy with it in pow and more unfavourable conditions.

I think they're a bit heavy though, although with dynafits maybe you could get away with it?

[andysk]

Thanks auvgeek.

Some weights for reference:
Praxis BC 180 3720g
Praxis Freeride 184 4082g (how much lighter is carbon layup?)
Wootest 2.0 187 3990g
Justice 185 3800g
Nunataq 186 3770g
Lhasa pow 186 3799g
Vicik Tour 186 4100g

So I think I'm down to the Justice 185 (last year's available for $399 and unchanged, also easyish to find used), wootest 1.0 187 (some available locally for quite a bit less than a new BC or Freeride), BC 180 or 190, Freeride 184, or Nunataq 186 (still like this ski, can any one comment on it?).

Need to read up more on the BC and Freeride to understand their differences, leaning toward one of those, anyone have BCs or Freerides they want to sell?

[Theo-san]

I'm on the old red Justices - a bit wider and I'm not sure how much if any the flex has changed - I ask BSL because they're on a last drill - they are mounted for 290BSL so they should work if you're interested. It sounds like you got right idea from my review - Softer flex and rockered tip/tail lead to a shorter running length on hard stuff and more deflection/a less stable platform on hard snow esp. at high speeds. Sidecut is money, I enjoy the tail rocker myself for a looser feel/pivot ability and being able to easily backup in tight spots when the snow is deep. Good ski but might not be what you're looking for.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

Yes, I was talking about the Praxis BC's. I'm 5'10" 180 and I had 180's. They were my non-powder touring ski, but I skied them in untracked snow a handful of times. I'd go 190 for your purposes.

[Island Bay]

Andy, mine are 190 (and I'm 6'1 x 175). I mostly ski the notoriously fickle - and occasionally blissful - NZ clubfields; any kind of ungroomed snow known to mankind.

They sort of ski short, in that they're very light and easy to turn (and carry!), but they truck when you want to haul it. Not in a Katana/LP kind of way, though.

I love mine in 190, but would not hesitate to get them in 180 for strictly touring.

[toast2266]

Praxis Freeride 184 4082g (how much lighter is carbon layup?)

My carbon concepts are just shy of 1/2 lb lighter than the published weight for the regular layup (for the pair), so that's roughly 200 grams.

[iggyskier]

anybody know the weight on the Vicik Tour?

Just for clarity:

176 ON3P Vicik - 1985g
176 ON3P Vicik Tour - 1825g

186 ON3P Vicik - 2290g
186 ON3P Vicik Tour - 2050g

[ryan b]

I'm on the old red Justices - a bit wider and I'm not sure how much if any the flex has changed - I ask BSL because they're on a last drill - they are mounted for 290BSL so they should work if you're interested. It sounds like you got right idea from my review - Softer flex and rockered tip/tail lead to a shorter running length on hard stuff and more deflection/a less stable platform on hard snow esp. at high speeds. Sidecut is money, I enjoy the tail rocker myself for a looser feel/pivot ability and being able to easily backup in tight spots when the snow is deep. Good ski but might not be what you're looking for.

Newer carbon versions (green and the current ones) are stiffer and lighter. I've got the green ones and very happy with them except the top sheet keeps trying to fall off and the bases need a lot of wax. Haven't had them on ice or groomers but they handle crust, sastrugi and anything soft well enough.

[andysk]

Thanks for your input theo, I think I will pass though as I'm leaning toward the praxi and even if I got justices I would want the later ones.

Thanks for clarifying the vicik tour iggy, I edited my weight post to remove speculation.

hillmap, have you had the green justices on icy/windblown steeps or anything else to test out the edges?

Thanks for the info on carbon layup toast. Sounds like the carbon freerides could come in pretty close to the BCs.

thanks to black diamonds and island bay for info on the BC lengths as I'm very close to both of your sizes.

I can't seem to find a direct comparison of Freerides to BCs from someone who has skied both. Can someone remember where to find such a comparison?

Also, no love for the Nunataq?

[Quadzilla]

I have a pair of 185 Green/grey/white BD Justice that is my primary BC AT ski. I got them last year and have maybe 25 days on them. Weighed on a accurate scale they weigh 9#15oz with Dynafit speed radicals, no brakes, leashes(pair). I weigh 180, pretty decent and experience BC skier but not a hard charger, cliff jumper ect ect. Anyway, for me I really like these skis, light for the up and agile and pretty quick skiing trees and powder. So overall a very good BC soft snow ski. I have had them on some firmer snow and crust and they are doable but to be honest, I only take these skis out when the snow is fresh and deep so not much time on firm or variable Spring conditions. I did take them resort skiing once and a 8-10" day and they were pretty good till things got chopped up and then they sucked and had me going back for my resort skis. I ski them with Radiums and the boots ski them great on the down but I think I could climb better with a boot that has more ROM. So, bottomline, Would I reccommend these to someone? For BC only, AT only, and someone who lives where there is alot of fresh snow wither it be light Utah or heavier NW I would say yes. Plus, they can be had cheap.

[GeezerSteve]

First issue: Are you also going to have a post-consolidation spring ski w/ Dynafits? If so, you've listed a pretty good lineup of mid-winter touring skis. OTOH, if this ski is going to be your only Dynafit-equipped touring ski, then look at something around 100mm waist, e.g., W99, Coomback or whatever Praxis offers at that width. 100mm waisted 20m radius ski is plenty for mid-winter tours for a 175 lb. guy with good skiing skills. 110mm+ waisted ski is more fun for mid-winter and really nice for wet PNW pow and pre-consolidation bottomless spring mush, but will suck in May, June and early July, post-consolidation prime spring touring in PNW. Note that it's not unusual for PNW to do 1/2 of their tours after May 1, so moving from CO to WA requires a change in perspective. (I'm really loving my 181 Charger BCs for pow tours, but if I didn't have a dedicated pair of spring touring skis I would stick with my 181 Coombacks for everything.)

Second issue: At 175 lbs. you might consider a shorter ski than some are recommending. I tour with guys your size on 170-178 touring skis and those are the right skis for them on tours. All of them are very good skiers and love to rip it lift-served on longer skis, but with some exceptions (e.g., Jeff R) tourists slow way the fuck down on tours as a matter of safety, so nearly all tourists don't need ubercharger length touring boards. Yeah, I know this is TGR, epicenter of the long ski/short dick crowd, but my mere tourist practicality compels me to make the case for shorter touring skis.