FKS Prerelease - WWMD?

[auvgeek]

Anyone had issues with it? I've prereleased a few times on FKS 140s and 180s (different skis) with my DIN around 12-13. I'm 5'11", 165# sans gear with a 310 bsl -- so I shouldn't need a really high DIN. I like to think I'm more of a finesse skier than a powerful skier, but maybe it's my technique that needs improvement? After a bad pre-release last spring, I thought my fwd pressure wasn't high enough, but now it's dialed up pretty well and I pre-released again last Sunday.

I thought it might be my boots, but SupreChicken pre-released on my FKS 140s (set at 12) Sunday too. (He usually runs his DIN around 9-10 in STH 16s and never has issues with prerelease.) After we both prereleased on Sunday, I discovered I could actually release laterally in the toe by kicking my ski tip sideways into hard snow. WTF? I thought it might be the mount (which I did myself), but everything appears aligned when I click in, and it's happened on a few different pairs of skis (some vertical and some lateral, but all that I've mounted myself). I guess I should take them to a shop and see if the DIN releases to spec? That could get expensive if I have to get all my skis tested (but worth it if there really is an issue).

And if they test fine (or even if that particular binding is fucked but all my others are fine), do I just continue to dial up the DIN to like 14-15 until I quit prereleasing? Seems really excessive to me, but I've already hurt my wrist pretty badly (like might-need-surgery badly) and I really worry about releasing again in a bad spot. The problem with dialing the DIN up incrementally is that the only way to know the DIN needs to go up is if you prerelease again -- and potentially hurt yourself.

I know there are mags out there who shred far harder than I ever will -- how do you keep your skis on your feet? Is this normal? Is the mount or the binders fucked? WWMD?

PS. I know this sounds like a "look how core I am!!!!" post, and for that I apologize and almost considered not posting it at all. But it's really not -- I'm just a regular weekend warrior who's honestly concerned for his safety. Prior to last year, I took a few years off because of injuries, and before that I was on Axial 120s with the DIN at 8 and no prerelease issues ever. But I was also a teenager, weighed 15 pounds less, kept my drops to under 25 feet, and didn't ski as fast over choppy snow...

[stuckathuntermtn]

You need to get your bindings looked at.
If not by a tech, at least a second person who also knows what they're doing (ie used to be a tech). A second pair of eyes might see something you're not seeing. Not super familiar with FKS/Pivot so I can't make any specific suggestions, but something is not right.
Just my $0.02

[Kim Jong-un]

There's no way you should be prereleasing at 165# and a 12-13 on FKS/Pivots. Something's fishy and I'd take them to a shop. I'm 190# and at a 10 DIN (I'm a pussy) but I bash through anything on those bindings and I've never had a prerelease for as long as I've been skiing them. They have a huge elasticity and do move sometimes but you can feel them snap back in firmly, but if you are ejecting from them, something's not right.

[Finstah]

Your forward pressure is probably too low. The forward pressure indicator on the FKS is irrelevant. See a tech who works with them all the time.

Otherwise, I'm inclined to think it's the Indian, not the arrow. Not to be a dick...

[TCNROMPER]

Your forward pressure is probably too low. The forward pressure indicator on the FKS is irrelevant. See a tech who works with them all the time.

Otherwise, I'm inclined to think it's the Indian, not the arrow. Not to be a dick...

I am certain it is your forward pressure values that are causing this problem. I mounted my own last year and was having similar issues, Have a tech check them out asap because that is not normal. Once adjusted by the shop I have yet to reproduce the same prerelease.

[auvgeek]

I almost guarantee it's not a fwd pressure thing. I think it may have been an issue in the first two prereleases (on the 180), but this last one is an anomaly to me. Had my shop-tech friend take a look at one pair after the second pre-release and he definitely dialed up the fwd pressure, so I have a pretty good idea of what it's supposed to feel like now. Seems almost too high to me, but I'll trust him. As a side note, I think jondrums' paper templates are a little off -- I now mount the heel for 307/8 instead of 310 so the fwd pressure is higher while still near the middle band.

Thanks for all the replies. Def going to have a shop check the pair of 140s. Something's not right there. Could be a fwd pressure thing -- I'll compare the fwd pressure of those against the fwd pressure on my pairs of 180s that haven't prereleased yet. Thanks again for all the help, you guys. Sorry for thinking out loud...

[Gone Skiing]

For forward pressure, tighten just until you can't spin the heel piece by hand around the heel of the boot.

[whyturn]

Cost of binding check = $10-$20
Prerelease in no fall zone or blown knee = life changing horror
Just get them checked by a certified experienced tech. Also your setting is way over recommended. Which is your choice but again, why?

[spindrift]

Given your personal specs, you should be able to huck whole mountains and not pre-release at that DIN. As others have noted, forward pressure on these is an art. Last I looked, even the manual pretty much said to set initially by the tabs and then ignore them and have someone familiar with the correct feel make it so... not too loose, not too tight - those experienced with the binding will know... Heh. For my .02, this still sounds like a forward pressure issue.

Find a shop & specific tech who does a ton of these. evo should be a safe bet as they do a ton of these. Even though they don't carry that binding, there are a couple guys at Gerk's in Redmond who I'd trust to dial 'em in (or tell me they couldn't).

[Toby]

Your forward pressure is probably too low. The forward pressure indicator on the FKS is irrelevant.

I'd tend to agree. I just mounted a set on the weekend and knew that the heel bail arms were too short (i.e. all the way) before fitting to the boot. But the easiest way to release the forward pressure was to flip the dildo by clicking the boot in. It fully levered the toe forwards a good few degrees and was hard to squash the boot in there, but it worked (poor toe was straining, for sure). I noticed the indicator barely changed between that setting and the more correct setting I ended up with, about 10mm longer on the arms. At both settings the indicator was in the correct position (according to my possibly erroneous judgement), furthest end of the indicator aligned with the back side of the raised bars.

[shroom]

shit, i don't like stumbling upon this! as fast as you ski, you still should be locked into those things at that rating.

good luck mang and heal up

[Dee Hubbs]

Too much forward pressure can also cause a prerelease. Excessive forward pressure does not allow the dildo to fully snap up when stepping in, causing early release in the heel.

[Shorty_J]

How new are your boots?

FKS (as with many other bindings) don't have toe height adjustment and I wonder because of how you describe a lateral toe release, if you could be slipping out of the binding due to a thin toe on your boot.

I'm honestly just guessing here, so take that for what it's worth.

I suggest this because I noticed some vertical play in my Griffon Schizo bindings with older Flexon boots. The boots are in decent shape and not too worn, but my vague alcohol-fueled memory thinks I once read something about DIN not being the standard we think it is? I've always hated having to fiddle with the settings on Sally bindings, but I'm thinking about going back to remove that slop.

[skimaxpower]

http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...rward-Pressure
http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...re-and-the-FKS

Triple check your forward pressure, ignoring the indicator. This is almost certainly the problem.

[Toby]

<edit>responding to Shorty_J</edit>

If you google "salomon shop manual", one of the first links is the '10/'11 manual and it has a diagram with the boot standards on p47. If you really wanted to check your own boots and had access to good gauges/calipers you could use that ...

[Shorty_J]

<edit>responding to Shorty_J</edit>

If you google "salomon shop manual", one of the first links is the '10/'11 manual and it has a diagram with the boot standards on p47. If you really wanted to check your own boots and had access to good gauges/calipers you could use that ...

Thanks man! Printing now and I'm going to check out my boots.

[Shorty_J]

Sorry if this is thread drift, but since it may be relevant, I'll post my findings...



My older flexons MOSTLY check out. My toe height (F) is good, but the ramp height (E) is 2+ mm too high. Similarly on the heel, (H) is good, but (I) is too high. Also, the toe depth (not lettered) is good at 7mm, but I don't have a 5mm sloping piece.

For the record, I have never pre-release out of my FKS, but I wonder if my noticable vertical toe movement is due to the above issues.

[auvgeek]

So I think I've isolated the problem to my pair of FKS 140s. Even with the fwd pressure cranked up, I can get the toe to release on the bench by pulling laterally on the boot with the din at 14. This doesn't happen on any of my pairs of 180s with the din between 12 and 13. Tested them with two boots (one pair brand new, never skied) to the same effect.

I appreciate the comments regarding fwd pressure, but I'm like 95% sure that's not the problem in this case. If some else posted this thread, I'd be saying the same thing ya'll are saying.

Gonna bring the binders to a shop and see what they think. Skiing the 180s for now.

Pretty sure my earlier problems with the 180s were fwd pressure related until my friend adjusted them after my prerelease (dude works at evo, knows his shit). I'd read all the threads on FKS fwd pressure and still wasn't running it quite high enough.

Thanks again everyone. Little embarrassing to put myself out here like this, but I appreciate the help.

[jondrums]

Well, the FKS 180 and 140 have totally different toe release mechanisms for one. The 140 has split toe wings which can spread apart to release, while the 180 has a solid toe piece which flexes rotationally. That could have something to do with the difference even at the same DIN.

[auvgeek]

^^Yeah, but even still, I'm pretty damn sure I shouldn't be able to get these to release that easily. I'll be curious to see if they release to spec in a shop.

I could see running the fwd pressure too high in the 140s causing problems. I backed off the fwd pressure when I realized the toe wings were starting to spread apart (with no lateral force on the binder).

[MTT]

^^Yeah, but even still, I'm pretty damn sure I shouldn't be able to get these to release that easily. I'll be curious to see if they release to spec in a shop.

I could see running the fwd pressure too high in the 140s causing problems. I backed off the fwd pressure when I realized the toe wings were starting to spread apart (with no lateral force on the binder).

So there is something wrong with the toe, right> Cuz thats just not supposed to happen. Bad spring? something broken? But something is wrong

[Bandit Man]

I've skied with Auvgeek. He skis insanely fast and drops huge stuff when the mood hits. I'm not surprised that releasing under those conditions feels like a pre-release. I also suspect the toe piece difference plays a part.

For example, I tried to make a pair of Salomon STH 14 (non-driver toe) work on small 10-15 foot drops I do and they kept popping off at the toe at any DIN. Swapped them out for STH 16's with the different toe and stayed in on the same drops at a DIN of 10. And of course I checked the forward pressure on both ;-)

[LC]

Find a good shop with torque testing equipment and experienced staff on a quiet day. Test the setup. If there is an anomaly, test a different boot in the same binding, and the same boot in a different binding. Leave money and beer, and walk out with your mind at rest.

[jondrums]

I've skied with Auvgeek. He skis insanely fast and drops huge stuff when the mood hits.

If this is true, what the hell are you doing on 140s? 150/180 or nothing. The all-metal toe is way better. I personally hoard the 150 series with the old geze 4 bolt all-metal toepiece.

[marshalolson]

The 14 has much less electricity in the toe than the 15/18 single pivot version.