NY Times article on the Feb 2012 Stevens Pass avalanche

[PNWbrit]

Pow11 - I think it's a fair point and something that's crossed my mind previously. At times I have felt a little like you would about, "do I really want this guy driving me after that many beers?" But dope is so entrenched in the whole ski lifestyle/scene though and really deeply personal it's a tough call to make.

Oftpiste and I were talking about article this weekend at the mountain - it certainly had me thinking and altering my behavior a little - For instance shortly after I beacon checked guys who I'd never previously question their "yeah i'm beeping" and discovered one (other, and an add on to group) had flat batteries.

[MTT]

Pow11 - I think it's a fair point and something that's crossed my mind previously. At times I have felt a little like you would about, "do I really want this guy driving me after that many beers?" But dope is so entrenched in the whole ski lifestyle/scene though and really deeply personal it's a tough call to make.

Oftpiste and I were talking about article this weekend at the mountain - it certainly had me thinking and altering my behavior a little - For instance shortly after I beacon checked guys who I'd never previously question their "yeah i'm beeping" and discovered one (other, and an add on to group) had flat batteries.

Its interesting what is off limits these days. When I read that in the article, I A: not surprised B: Thought about it quite a bit as a possible contributing factor to mass stupiditity.

I chose not to even bring it up knowing the hard time some in the collective would give anyone who merely mentioned it.
But I am not going to sit here and act like only 1 or two people even thought about it.

[TahoeJ]

All true, but I am left wondering what supports such an obviously time-consuming effort. Did anybody here click on any of the advertisements? If not, the Times did not make any money off of you.

Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about regarding the part I quoted. At all. The NY Times is straight up CPM buys across the board, meaning they get paid for every impression, plus in some cases back end kickers for conversions. Not saying it will make up for lost print revenues, but it's most certainly not about clicks in this case.

[N1CK.]

Excellent and well presented e-article, well done Times.

Be smart and safe everybody.

[powder11]

Pow11 - I think it's a fair point and something that's crossed my mind previously. At times I have felt a little like you would about, "do I really want this guy driving me after that many beers?" But dope is so entrenched in the whole ski lifestyle/scene though and really deeply personal it's a tough call to make.

Oftpiste and I were talking about article this weekend at the mountain - it certainly had me thinking and altering my behavior a little - For instance shortly after I beacon checked guys who I'd never previously question their "yeah i'm beeping" and discovered one (other, and an add on to group) had flat batteries.

I've done it myself and I don't really mind if people do it around me, but I do think pot lulls people into a false sense of security sometimes. Although it can drive others into sheer panic. Neither of which is a good thing when doing dangerous stuff. It is a personal choice except when the clouded judgement interferes with group dynamics. Again, not specifically talking about this incident because the facts surrounding it are way too vague in the article and nobody here was there.

Its interesting what is off limits these days. When I read that in the article, I A: not surprised B: Thought about it quite a bit as a possible contributing factor to mass stupiditity.

I chose not to even bring it up knowing the hard time some in the collective would give anyone who merely mentioned it.
But I am not going to sit here and act like only 1 or two people even thought about it.

I knew it was going to piss some folks off and that's why I hesitated bringing up the topic, but I don't see the harm in discussing it and if it gets people thinking, then that is a good thing.

[spook]

Its interesting what is off limits these days. When I read that in the article, I A: not surprised B: Thought about it quite a bit as a possible contributing factor to mass stupiditity.

I chose not to even bring it up knowing the hard time some in the collective would give anyone who merely mentioned it.
But I am not going to sit here and act like only 1 or two people even thought about it.

i can see B. individually or in small groups i know people who are essentially the same not high/high, at least with respect to self and situational awareness and decision-making. a large group could definitely change how people respond to being high.

[Squirrel99]

Tough for me to comment on this thread, having known two of those that passed.

there are great discussion points made. I found myself glued to the article, took me a solid hour to digest. Was well written/presented/respectful and has some very valid takeaway points, especially considering group dynamics. I lived in Washington for 7 years, and know the scene. Have also spent numerous seasons in some 'Hollywood' resorts like Alta-Bird, Vail, and now Jackson. It's easy to get caught up in the moment, wanting to show people around - providing that 'stoke' - and it doesn't have to be a 'bunch of heavies' in town either. We all take pride in the resorts we ski, and for many of us, that also includes the nearby sidecountry and backcountry.

It's been mentioned above, but is crtical to ensure EVERYONE has a voice and is encouraged to speak up. If people aren't speaking up, you need to ask them questions- dig for answers/opinions. Make them feel comfortable about admitting their true instincts. Recognize gut feelings. Disuss the route in detail. Get to know the group and your partners, take a run or two with them before going out the gate. Re-read the avy report at the exit as a group (most resorts post it at the gates- if not, check w/ Patrol, use a smart phone, etc..). Make sure everyone is comfortable and understands the risks, the route, variables, etc...

This tragedy has forced me to reconsider what I consider 'safe zones' where I ski. We should always, constantly be asking questions, talking amongst each other and recognizing conditions as they change. Not to say it was right or wrong, or to pass judgement, but I kept thinking about the timing. If I remember correctly, the avy forecast had potential to rise throughout the day... I wonder if this contributed to what has been described as a hurried pace?

I'm guilty of being in similar situations and going along with the flow before- provided there had been at least 1 or 2 people in the group I trusted (or thought as 'local experts'). Now I will always question my own gut/feelings and take them for face value. As others mentioned, it's a culture change that is needed. We need to remove the 'I don't want to be the one that skipped out, or caused the group to change routes/or stay inbounds, etc.." vibe. Opinions need to be encouraged and embraced.

Last year I found myself in a similar group dynamic here in Jackson. A friend and I got involved with friends of friends visiting Jackson- with 1 of them having been an ex-local. That person was hell-bent on skiing what I had considered some risky choices given the current stability/snow conditions. My friend- she was the only female in the group and shy to bring up her opinion. I called her out amongst the group to state what she felt (we had talked earlier on the tram). I got that 'bro' look from the ex-local who only had a few days to ski 'his old lines' despite conditions. We finally got the group to agree with us and selected the alternate, preferred route. Later my friend thanked me for supporting her, even though the ex-local guy was pissed- you could totally tell. I could care less. We were fully prepared to abandon the group and take another line. Point being, we need to always speak up and be on the 'true same page'

Ironically, what makes this tragedy really hit home is the supportive culture those guys helped develop/foster at Stevens, and the entire Washington ski community. Facts are rather straight forward, and people just seemed to get caught up in the stoke moment that day. This was a powerful read that will definitely affect/impact many that read it. It was respectful, factual, and insightful.

These guys had something special going. You just knew it. Everytime up at Stevens, or at an event in Seattle, summer time hang out in Leavenworth- people were drawn to their all-inclusiveness and selfless appeal. They are truly missed. It's probably been posted before, but if you are inclined to do so, visit: http://www.skihillproject.org/

RIP Chris, JJ, and Johnny

-Tim

[gorgeskier]

A couple of things were glossed over or not mentioned in the article - maybe some of you guys know the answers. The kept mentioning how experienced the group was - but did they have avalanche training etc? Also, no one dug any pits or did any ski cuts that day? If true I am amazed.

Other than that a good article and a wakeup to the dangers of groupthink.

Vibes and condolences to the friends and family.

[WK Monoskier]

Pertaining to the discussion of route discussion and social pressure, the paragraph in the article describing how Erin Dessert felt really called out to me, mainly since I would have opted for the front side of Cowboy that day versus raising any concerns I had with of group of professionals I didn't know...not to mention there were so many good lines to be had inbounds...risk vs reward.

Quoted from the article:
Erin Dessert did not follow. She was confused. She was once a Tunnel Creek regular, until a nonfatal avalanche captured five friends in 2002 and scared her away.

“Chris Rudolph’s, like, totally all about safety protocol and mountain awareness and wisdom,” she said. “That guy knows the conditions like an animal. He has instincts. It didn’t register, even for a second, that he might be bringing this group to Tunnel Creek. It wasn’t logical. I thought we were doing the front side.”

She headed hard to the right, away from the others. The other snowboarders that she knew, Carlson and Wesley, were gone in the opposite direction. Some in the remaining group noticed Dessert heading away in the distance and dismissed her as an oblivious backcountry rookie. She dipped out of sight in a lonely panic.

“I’ve been riding Stevens Pass since I was 3 years old,” Dessert said. “I can tell circumstances, and I just felt like something besides myself was in charge. They’re all so professional and intelligent and driven and powerful and riding with athletic prowess, yet everything in my mind was going off, wanting to tell them to stop.”

If she spoke up, would anyone in the group have taken her concern seriously? Or just dismiss her as it sounds like they did...

[spook]

Group dynamics are just huge aren't they. Article does a great job at zeroing in on that part of the puzzle. Mountains don't care.

In my experience, theres always multiple mistakes made. 2 of the 3 stupid situations I've gotten myself into involved a group dynamic that played their part in clouding my judgement.

Edit- anyone else pick up on the number of times people didn't do or say something cause they didn't want to seem 'uncool'?

with the caliber of riders involved, i would have expected a lot of people to say something. to be as accomplished as many were in various fields and as riders, i would have expected strong wills to insist.

petty and minor, but for as much shit as snowboarders get for being dope-smoking, knuckledragging idiots, i thought it was interesting that all (i think) of the snowboarders were nervous and took alternate routes.

tough read.

[spook]

Pertaining to the discussion of route discussion and social pressure, the paragraph in the article describing how Erin Dessert felt really called out to me, mainly since I would have opted for the front side of Cowboy that day versus raising any concerns I had with of group of professionals I didn't know...not to mention there were so many good lines to be had inbounds...risk vs reward.

Quoted from the article:
Erin Dessert did not follow. She was confused. She was once a Tunnel Creek regular, until a nonfatal avalanche captured five friends in 2002 and scared her away.

“Chris Rudolph’s, like, totally all about safety protocol and mountain awareness and wisdom,” she said. “That guy knows the conditions like an animal. He has instincts. It didn’t register, even for a second, that he might be bringing this group to Tunnel Creek. It wasn’t logical. I thought we were doing the front side.”

...

If she spoke up, would anyone in the group have taken her concern seriously? Or just dismiss her as it sounds like they did...

based on her and everybody else's description of rudolph, seems like she would have had a hard time being heard over a gung-ho and well-loved rep of the ski area if he acted like there was nothing to be concerned about. it was disappointing to see the gender considerations be relevant by the accomplished women riders in all the testosterone, but i guess that's reality.

[powder11]

petty and minor, but for as much shit as snowboarders get for being dope-smoking, knuckledragging idiots, i thought it was interesting that all (i think) of the snowboarders were nervous and took alternate routes.

probably opting to avoid a big traverse out at the bottom more than anything you are insinuating

[spook]

probably opting to avoid a big traverse out at the bottom more than anything you are insinuating

i'll reread it, but i seem to recall 2 or 3 of the 4? questioning the decisionmaking individually or within their smaller group.

[Freuchen Icepick]

i understand the scope of this story was tightly zoomed in on this group and the accident, but it seems to me, for context, it might've been worthwhile to mention that three other skier-triggered avalanche accidents happened in the cascades on the same day (resulting in one other fatality). just checked the northwest weather and avalanche center's accident page and, in fact, there are only six accident reports from the whole season -- four of them from that day.

good to see some discussion on this. i have some feelings about it, have been talking with friends about it, i do know some of the folks involved, and pretty much i just feel badly for everybody involved on a lot of levels and don't feel up to diving deep into what feels like would only be criticisms...

meanwhile, i would be curious to learn more from a local's perspective about the terrain in tunnel creek. the skier who triggered the slide, based on my read of the story and the multimedia, was descending what appeared to be the "center punch" line of the drainage. is this a correct read? also, as others have mentioned about the people who went left and right -- are those lines sort of "sneaks" down, i.e., safer terrain? from looking at google earth, it looks like left offers some rib/ridge travel but then sort of merges with the broader face.

[splat]

[PNWbrit]

Tough for me to comment on this thread, having known two of those that passed.

there are great discussion points made. I found myself glued to the article, took me a solid hour to digest. Was well written/presented/respectful and has some very valid takeaway points, especially considering group dynamics. I lived in Washington for 7 years, and know the scene. Have also spent numerous seasons in some 'Hollywood' resorts like Alta-Bird, Vail, and now Jackson. It's easy to get caught up in the moment, wanting to show people around - providing that 'stoke' - and it doesn't have to be a 'bunch of heavies' in town either. We all take pride in the resorts we ski, and for many of us, that also includes the nearby sidecountry and backcountry.

It's been mentioned above, but is crtical to ensure EVERYONE has a voice and is encouraged to speak up. If people aren't speaking up, you need to ask them questions- dig for answers/opinions. Make them feel comfortable about admitting their true instincts. Recognize gut feelings. Disuss the route in detail. Get to know the group and your partners, take a run or two with them before going out the gate. Re-read the avy report at the exit as a group (most resorts post it at the gates- if not, check w/ Patrol, use a smart phone, etc..). Make sure everyone is comfortable and understands the risks, the route, variables, etc...

This tragedy has forced me to reconsider what I consider 'safe zones' where I ski. We should always, constantly be asking questions, talking amongst each other and recognizing conditions as they change. Not to say it was right or wrong, or to pass judgement, but I kept thinking about the timing. If I remember correctly, the avy forecast had potential to rise throughout the day... I wonder if this contributed to what has been described as a hurried pace?

I'm guilty of being in similar situations and going along with the flow before- provided there had been at least 1 or 2 people in the group I trusted (or thought as 'local experts'). Now I will always question my own gut/feelings and take them for face value. As others mentioned, it's a culture change that is needed. We need to remove the 'I don't want to be the one that skipped out, or caused the group to change routes/or stay inbounds, etc.." vibe. Opinions need to be encouraged and embraced.

Last year I found myself in a similar group dynamic here in Jackson. A friend and I got involved with friends of friends visiting Jackson- with 1 of them having been an ex-local. That person was hell-bent on skiing what I had considered some risky choices given the current stability/snow conditions. My friend- she was the only female in the group and shy to bring up her opinion. I called her out amongst the group to state what she felt (we had talked earlier on the tram). I got that 'bro' look from the ex-local who only had a few days to ski 'his old lines' despite conditions. We finally got the group to agree with us and selected the alternate, preferred route. Later my friend thanked me for supporting her, even though the ex-local guy was pissed- you could totally tell. I could care less. We were fully prepared to abandon the group and take another line. Point being, we need to always speak up and be on the 'true same page'

Ironically, what makes this tragedy really hit home is the supportive culture those guys helped develop/foster at Stevens, and the entire Washington ski community. Facts are rather straight forward, and people just seemed to get caught up in the stoke moment that day. This was a powerful read that will definitely affect/impact many that read it. It was respectful, factual, and insightful.

These guys had something special going. You just knew it. Everytime up at Stevens, or at an event in Seattle, summer time hang out in Leavenworth- people were drawn to their all-inclusiveness and selfless appeal. They are truly missed. It's probably been posted before, but if you are inclined to do so, visit: http://www.skihillproject.org/

RIP Chris, JJ, and Johnny

-Tim

Well said buddy.

[VTColdSmoke]

Bump for an amazing must read article. Read it last night and had a hard time sleeping.. Tim Carlson is a friend of a friend, and VT shredder i have a lot of respect for..

Vibes to everyone involved.

[nogophers]

This will be nominated for a Pulitzer.

This won the pulitzer for feature writing. Congratulations to John Branch and the NY Times. http://www.pulitzer.org/citation/2013-Feature-Writing

[yellowstoner]

This won the pulitzer for feature writing. Congratulations to John Branch and the NY Times. http://www.pulitzer.org/citation/2013-Feature-Writing

Awesome! Glad it's getting the recognition it deserves. Reread the article and it was just as gripping as when I first read it.

[AK47bp]

Well deserved. Ever since I read that article bits and pieces of it enter my brain when I'm skiing/skinning bc, it definitely made an impression on me as I'm sure it did with others.

[NoPostholio]

excellent and well deserved - hope that article makes it into every avy 1 class.

[MTT]

Awesome! Glad it's getting the recognition it deserves. Reread the article and it was just as gripping as when I first read it.

that makes Sense. But I have always wondered, did Megan Michelson have some contribution to this article being written? Her VERY good account of this event (Written in the first Person) came long before this outstanding piece.

There is this little alarm going off in my head that she has somehow been? overlooked?

[Squalpine]

that makes Sense. But I have always wondered, did Megan Michelson have some contribution to this article being written? Her VERY good account of this event (Written in the first Person) came long before this outstanding piece.

There is this little alarm going off in my head that she has somehow been? overlooked?

I remember her piece in outside being an excellent account long before the NYT's came out... (Not to take anything away from the journalistic accomplishments of either article--both offer a different look at the event)