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Thread: Ketogenesis

  1. #1
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    Ketogenesis

    It took some time to rearrange my metabolism, but the benefits are incredible. Instead of glucose, the body uses ketones, which are an essentially unlimited fuel supply. Fat and more fat is the main part of the diet. Homer was right, butter that bacon boy!

    Anyone else experimenting with this?

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    http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides...e-diets?page=2

    Works as seizure reductor in about half of kids with epilepsy, but general concensus for healthy people is fad diet with detrimental side effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Socialist View Post
    They have socalized healthcare up in canada. The whole country is 100% full of pot smoking pro-athlete alcoholics.

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    Why are ketones any more unlimited than glucose/glycogen?

    And how's your breath? This basically sounds like self-inflicted ketoacidosis.

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    have fun being that much closer to a coma

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    stroking out like Dr. Atkins is hearsay...
    ... jfost is really ignorant, he often just needs simple facts laid out for him...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah! View Post
    Why are ketones any more unlimited than glucose/glycogen?

    And how's your breath? This basically sounds like self-inflicted ketoacidosis.
    Quote Originally Posted by crackboy View Post
    have fun being that much closer to a coma
    Keep 'em coming. Funny how people with absolutely no experience are so eager to chime in.
    I have actually done my fair share of ketosis, and have done physicals and several full bloodwork while in ketosis.
    No coma, no short term or long term problems, some bad breath, no keotacidosis (it's not the fucking same just because it has the term "keto" in it!).

    OP, I've only had positive results with ketosis, and I generally shoot for ketosis now even if I'm not specifically targeting a ketogenic diet. Greatly suppressed appetite is just one benefit, imho.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnHard View Post
    ... no ... long term problems...
    how do you know? that's a question for your coroner at the post mortem...
    ... jfost is really ignorant, he often just needs simple facts laid out for him...

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    I eat food.
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  9. #9
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    Considering that both the brain and erythrocytes rely almost exclusively on glucose for energy metabolism, this is a terrible idea. Can you survive for some time on ketone bodies? Yes. Is it good for cognitive health? No. Eat a normal diet with fruits and vegetables, adequate protein, and limit refined sugars and you'll be ideal. Fringe fad diets are idiotic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jfost View Post
    stroking out like Dr. Atkins is hearsay...
    Yep - he didn't die from a stroke: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/apr/18/2

    I did the no/low carb diet and it worked great. I lost 40lbs and my serum cholesterol levels were far better than when I started. Atkins was a Cardiologist after all - getting the body to fight cholesterol was his goal, the weight loss just a bonus.

    Unfortunately the siren song of bread, beer, and pasta was impossible to ignore for long, and I gained it all back. Might be time to do it again. I should get in touch w/Spats...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RolexJr View Post
    Considering that both the brain and erythrocytes rely almost exclusively on glucose for energy metabolism, this is a terrible idea. Can you survive for some time on ketone bodies? Yes. Is it good for cognitive health? No. Eat a normal diet with fruits and vegetables, adequate protein, and limit refined sugars and you'll be ideal. Fringe fad diets are idiotic.
    Tell the Inuit how "fad" their diet is.
    The anti-ketosis conclusions have been challenged by a number of doctors and advocates of low-carbohydrate diets, who dispute assertions that the body has a preference for glucose and that there are dangers associated with ketosis.[20][21][22] Because of the experience of Arctic explorers like Vilhjalmur Stefansson who adopted native Inuit diets which derived as much as 90% of energy from fats and proteins, many have held up the Inuit people as an example of a culture that has lived for thousands of years on a ketogenic diet. Conversely, it is speculated by Nick Lane [23] that the Inuit may have a genetic predisposition allowing them to eat a ketogenic diet and remain healthy. According to this view, such an evolutionary adaptation would have been caused by environmental stresses.[24] This speculation is unsupported, however, in light of the many arctic explorers including John Rae, Fridtjof Nansen, and Frederick Schwatka all of whom adapted to native ketogenic diets with no adverse effects.[25] Note especially Schwatka, who specifically commented that after a 2- to 3-week period of adaptation to the ketogenic diet of the native peoples he could manage "prolonged sledge journeys," including the longest sledge journey on record, relying solely on the Inuit diet without difficulty.[26] Furthermore, in a comprehensive review of the anthropological and nutritional evidence collected on 229 hunter-gatherer societies it was found that, "Most (73%) of the worldwide hunter-gatherer societies derived >50% (≥56–65% of energy) of their subsistence from animal foods, whereas only 14% of these societies derived >50% (≥56–65% of energy) of their subsistence from gathered plant foods," suggesting that the ability to thrive on ketogenic diets is widespread and not limited to any particular genetic predisposition.[27] While it is believed that carbohydrate intake after exercise is the most effective way of replacing depleted glycogen stores,[28][29] studies have shown that, after a period of 2–4 weeks of adaptation, physical endurance (as opposed to physical intensity) is unaffected by ketosis, as long as the diet contains high amounts of fat.[24] It seems appropriate that some clinicians have acknowledged this period of keto-adaptation the "Schwatka Imperative" after the explorer who first identified the transition period from glucose-adaptation to keto-adaptation.[30]

  12. #12
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    Yeah it's a great idea, and you can harden surf board and fiberglass resin with your breath.

    I wonder how flammable these people are...do you smoke? Might be an interesting experiment.

    I agree it is a constitutional right for Americans to be assholes...its just too bad that so many take the opportunity...
    iscariot

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    Quote Originally Posted by BurnHard View Post
    Keep 'em coming. Funny how people with absolutely no experience are so eager to chime in.
    I have actually done my fair share of ketosis, and have done physicals and several full bloodwork while in ketosis.
    No coma, no short term or long term problems, some bad breath, no keotacidosis (it's not the fucking same just because it has the term "keto" in it!).

    OP, I've only had positive results with ketosis, and I generally shoot for ketosis now even if I'm not specifically targeting a ketogenic diet. Greatly suppressed appetite is just one benefit, imho.
    actually i have a doctorate in physiology and specialize in metabolism. ketolysis is the last step a body goes through in order to keep the brain supplied with fuel when it thinks it is starving. the next step is coma , then comes death.

  14. #14
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    ^^^Yeah, but what do you know. These people read about it on the Internet, who should we believe?

    I agree it is a constitutional right for Americans to be assholes...its just too bad that so many take the opportunity...
    iscariot

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    Anything that's ever been on the internet is true, like the thing with the aircraft carrier and the lighthouse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

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    Stop making fun of people for being awesome

  17. #17
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    First off the term ketogenic implies a diet where energy needs are not met properly and the body must rely on protein catabolism and fatty acid chains from triacyglycerols (TG) to produce ketone bodies for fuel, hence unhealthy.

    Your interpretation of the quote you copied from Wikipedia (or elsewhere without context) is incorrect. The traditional inuit diet was composed as discussed in that article, but results were completely different from "ketosis" for a number of reasons. If consumed in adequate amount, the glycerol portion of TGs can be used to produce new glucose molecules (gluconeogenesis). Additionally, certain amino acids (i.e. alanine) can also be used for gluconeogenesis. These pathways can result in adequate glucose for the brain and red blood cells, and thus aren't "ketogenic"

    A typical inuit diet consisted of approximately 30% of daily energy derived from protein. The current ADMR (accepted macronutrient density range) for protein is 10-30%, so while they were on the the high end, they were within that range. The majority of there energy intake came from fat (50-65%), but this was animal fats from marine mammals and caribou. These animal fats are high in unsaturated fats, and result in anti-inflammatory hormone synthesis. The meat we buy from any grocery store in America is of the domesticated variety. These meats have been selected (often unintentionally) for thousands of years to contain mostly saturated fats. As a results, hormones synthesized from these fats are often pro-inflammatory, and pro-atherogenic, generally unhealthy. You eat a "ketogenic" high fat, high protein, diet purchased from your neighborhood grocer and let me know how that turns out for you.

    A high protein, high fat, low carbohydrate diet is not inherently unhealthy, its the uneducated application of the principle that is.

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    I like your avatar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RolexJr View Post
    You eat a "ketogenic" high fat, high protein, diet purchased from your neighborhood grocer and let me know how that turns out for you.
    I'm willing to bet most epileptics benefiting from a keto diet don't have a freezer full of blubber and caribou fat.

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    My freezer is half full of cariboo. Some of the leanest meat you will ever see. Making hamburger requires fat from another animal. Still waiting to try baby seal...

  21. #21
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    "Dietary fat has been the subject of considerable derision, misinformation and disinformation through medical authorities, public policy campaigns, conventional nutritionists and the mainstream media for most of the last century. Conversely, dietary carbohydrates have been lauded as foundational to human dietary needs.

    Human physiological makeup and the history of our ancestral diet, however, has not been consistent with these claims. Dietary fat is demonstrably central to our most basic energy, metabolic and physiologic needs and by restricting its intake we foster a much less healthy and unnatural dependence upon carbohydrates, to the considerable detriment of societal physical and mental health. " Nora Gedgaudas

    and here is a twenty minute talk she gives on the subject: http://www.sott.net/article/254671-T...body-and-brain

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yanos View Post
    My freezer is half full of cariboo. Some of the leanest meat you will ever see. Making hamburger requires fat from another animal. Still waiting to try baby seal...
    I read somewhere (I'll try to find the article) that the Inuit would give the leanest cuts of meat to their dogs. All those rib eyes, filets, NY strips... were for them, dog meat!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by crackboy View Post
    actually i have a doctorate in physiology and specialize in metabolism. ketolysis is the last step a body goes through in order to keep the brain supplied with fuel when it thinks it is starving. the next step is coma , then comes death.
    Congratulations, you seem well indoctrinated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iscariot View Post
    http://www.m.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides...e-diets?page=2

    Works as seizure reductor in about half of kids with epilepsy, but general concensus for healthy people is fad diet with detrimental side effects.
    The article quoted is not a good reference. Nutritional ketogenesis is not a "high protein" diet, and ALL studies that look at high protein/low carb diets show mediocre if not detrimental results BECAUSE high protein is just as bad for the body as high carbohydrates. In fact, beyond a certain amount, protein is metabolized as glucose!

    Ketogenic diet means high fat/limited protein/extremely low carbs (i.e., what you get from vegetables).

    I opened this discussion because like everyone on TGR, I am enthusiastic about life and particular about the details. Nobody here thinks a ski, is just a ski, is just a ski. Details are important! And learning is fun! And experimentation is a great way to learn!

    Here is a better overview of Ketosis, and as the author says: "If you want to actually understand this topic, you must invest the time and mental energy to do so. You really have to get into the details. Obviously, I love the details and probably read 5 or 6 scientific papers every week on this topic (and others). I don’t expect the casual reader to want to do this, and I view it as my role to synthesize this information and present it to you. But this is not a bumper-sticker issue. I know it’s trendy to make blanket statements – ketosis is “unnatural,” for example, or ketosis is “superior” – but such statements mean nothing if you don’t understand the biochemistry and evolution of our species. So, let’s agree to let the unsubstantiated statements and bumper stickers reside in the world of political debates and opinion-based discussions. For this reason, I’ve deliberately broken this post down and only included this content (i.e., background) for Part I."

    http://eatingacademy.com/nutrition/k...d-state-part-i

    Added: and performance too! I don't buy shitty skis or gloves or goggles because I want to be at my best, without breakdowns, malfunctions, and compromises. Fueling the body is just as important as ski gear! KD is being 'rediscovered' as the optimal way to fuel the body and the mind, and after a long experiment and adaptive process, I've found this to be well worth discussion and an important idea for sharing.
    Last edited by AyasFreeski; 12-15-2012 at 05:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AyasFreeski View Post
    Added: and performance too! I don't buy shitty skis or gloves or goggles because I want to be at my best, without breakdowns, malfunctions, and compromises. Fueling the body is just as important as ski gear! KD is being 'rediscovered' as the optimal way to fuel the body and the mind, and after a long experiment and adaptive process, I've found this to be well worth discussion and an important idea for sharing.
    Not increasing physical performance unless your sport is ultramarathons. You cannot exert as much energy in a 15 sec - 3 hr period as similar person who has a balanced diet with adequate carbs.


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