2013-2014 Gear Rumors What you got

[Beyond]

yeah man, i find their push for light tips and tails pretty interesting too. kind of mystifying really.

at least in DPS land, we have been actively working to balance the tip and tail perimeter weight balancing ala golf clubs and tennis rackets.

in golf, adding weight at the rearward/bottom of the club head and removing it from the top of and front of the club head makes a ball-strike much straighter. to apply that to skiing, you want the weight at the ends (tip and tail) so the ski tracks straight, and to remove the weight from underfoot to keep the item light and reactive overall.

having a higher perimeter weighting bias allows the ski to track truer and deflect less in chopped/cut snow. a small difference is certainly noticeable on snow, but i have only tested this on a DPS pure, that is light under foot. having skied several lengths and models with varying amounts of perimeter weighting, i never really notice any difference in 20g or whatever in the weight addition is, of the ski, while on snow, but do for sure notice the ski tracks truer.

i can see a ski that is overly heavy under foot gaining maneuverability after a small reduction to perimeter weighting, but based on our experimenting, i would be surprised if the skis with lightened tips and tails don't deflect much easier than if they had UHMW tip and tail spacers.

Have no horse in this race, but note that the Sollie 115 188 cm is 2180 gm, the Wailer 112RP hybrid 190 cm is 2200 gm. Would guess that the surface areas are similar, maybe a bit more with the Sollie. So worthwhile comparison. Would also note that several decent companies have gone the route of reducing tip and tail mass, ranging from the old Dynastar bubbles (although they had that little weight in them, so unclear) or their hybrid cap/sandwich constructions, to Fischer and Kastle cutouts, to Rossignol Cascade tips. So not sure it's marketing bs; my Kastles are seriously smooth skis that retain snowfeel. Also, the published rationales for cutouts have tended to be less about swingweight than about reducing the mass that will oscillate, eg, less mass = lower amplitude vibration or maybe quicker half life. I'd guess as a non-engineer that both approaches work, but for different reasons: The lower mass tips will not perturb the rest of the ski as much when they vibrate, so smoother on ice etc, while the higher mass tips will be less deflected/have more inertia, so smoother in crud. Or not...

[the_eleven]

The Spatula certainly had more weight underfoot than at the tips & tails.

Perhaps DPS' solution only applies to stabilizing a low mass ski.

[marshalolson]

The lower mass tips will not perturb the rest of the ski as much when they vibrate, so smoother on ice etc, while the higher mass tips will be less deflected/have more inertia, so smoother in crud. Or not...

there are just a ton more variables of course, length of tip, stiffness of tip, mass of entire fore-body of ski, etc. since the entire shovel, rather than JUST the tip off the snow, it approximates a damped oscillating spring, basically starting at the boot-tip.

but either way, leverage is an inverse square law, so the further out the mass gets, the more it functions like having more mass. see: metronome. a metronome oscillates super fast with the mass near the center, and moves much much slower when the mass is moved to the extremity.

either way, i just found it interesting. looking forward to reading soul7 reviews since it is far lighter than a kastle bmx or whatever.

the kastle hollow-tip thing is just removing a chunk of the ultra thin wood core, which is way light. the ski still has a UHMW tip spacer. i would argue for a Kastle, the tip is more aesthetic than anything. the obviously ski fantastically regardless. the Kastle are probably saving perhaps 7g in the tip with the cutout, give or take.

the salomon and rossignol tips are different in that they do not use the plastic tip spacers, which is more in the 20+g weight savings in the tip, which would be more pronounced.

i dunno. have not skied them, but its interesting either way.

[davieboot]

but either way, leverage is an inverse square law, so the further out the mass gets, the more it functions like having more mass. see: metronome. a metronome oscillates super fast with the mass near the center, and moves much much slower when the mass is moved to the extremity.

I don't mean to be nitpicky, but it is linear, not exponential (square law or otherwise).

[XavierD]

but either way, leverage is an inverse square law, so the further out the mass gets, the more it functions like having more mass. see: metronome. a metronome oscillates super fast with the mass near the center, and moves much much slower when the mass is moved to the extremity.

What? Leverage (torque) is linear, Force x Moment arm. Can't really understand what you are saying about the metronome mass distance. Are you referring to how far from the pivot the mass is (radius) or how far from equilibrium the mass is (angular displacement)?

And inertia and how it is effected, is what you should be worrying about at this point. I don't buy that putting te weight in the tip and tail will help keep the ski (overall) tracking in the right direction. It will help reduce how far the tip deflects, but not how much it effects the ski overall (unless you are changing CG which it sounds like you are not. Moving the c.g. Forward can help out in overall stability.

Then again, I have not skied them, so take it all with a grain of thought.

[marshalolson]

yes, linear. sorry!

anyhow, 2 types of "unstable" on a ski.

1. the tip flaps up and down around the bend in the tip-rise, the tip flaps around its rocker line, and the tip flaps across the entire forebode from end to boot tip. the metronome example applies to tip flap up and down.More weight at the end slows the flapping more weight in the middle speeds the flapping.

2. a ski can also deflect laterally around your leg. lower swing weight in the tip means its also easier for firm snow to push the ski when not weighted and deflect, which turns the shovel away from your intended direction. this is what i mean by more perimeter weighting helping the ski track true.

anyhow, sorry, no desire to make this a DPS thing at all. i just found the rossi idea interesting, and am curious how all that plays out on snow. either way, on a VERY different ski, than the DPS stuff.

Anyhow, more my point is that a small change to perimeter weighting can make a relatively heavier ski feel lighter an more responsive, it also can Make a relatively light ski feel more substantial and stable. And since the small mass is added or subtracted far from the boot, it's far more noticeable than a larger mass added or subtracted underfoot.

Heck for all I know the weight of just the tip of the Rossi with that air core jazz is now the same as the weight of the same amount of tip on a DPS with perimeter weighting. who knows. Only point really was that a small change can make a marked difference, but that there can also be other consequences to the skis tracking and deflection and flapping as well.

Like I said really look forward to seeing some reviews on that soul7.

[XavierD]

Thanks for the response, love to talk more about it with ya, but not here.

AFAIK: way maker is a modified Hawk lower, with a redster style upper, carbon integrated into the shell, reports are walk mode is greatly improved from tracker (from a guy who has skied both). Looks to be well thought out, and when in ski mode, the walk mechanism appears to engage the lower of the shell. Removable, and I believe swappable, toe and heel lugs. Did not feel super light to me, but It seems like they are going after the Cochise/XT/Quest/Factor(ha!) set of boots rather than the RS or mercury. I think it looks like some nice competition for the Cochise, and the new scarpa, k2, and BD(ha!) boots.

[verbier61]

So what is the declared weight of soul7, etc? Anyone knows?

[SiSt]

yes, linear. sorry!

?

l=m*r^2

[roca1]

^
Can't wait to hear details on TLT 6, looks similar, claimed 1050g is pretty much unchanged from TLT 5 P. Looks like acti-flex is still around and instep buckle has not been moved backwards.

sorry but it seems to me that the only substantial change of the tlt6 is the loss of acti-flex, I agree everything else pretty much unchanged.. where do you still see it (acti flex)?

[creaky fossil]

in golf, adding weight at the rearward/bottom of the club head and removing it from the top of and front of the club head makes a ball-strike much straighter.

Um, nope.

It makes the ball fly higher and the club slice through the grass & soil easier.

To make the clubhead want to track straighter, and thus cause a straighter shot, you evenly weight it around a perimeter that encircles the desired strike zone on the club face.

Go back and review club design through the 1970s and 1980s when the Prince Racket effect (TM) was taking over the golf industry's designers.

Look at Karsten Solheim's PING clubs, and Titleist's heel-toe weight clubs. Look at investment cast young upstarts, challenging forged oldschool designs. Compare the classic true player's club like the mid70s Dunlop Maxfli Australian Blade, or the same era's Wilson Staff, to the PING varieties or the Titleist I mentioned, or any other cavity-back, heel-toe or perimeter weight cast club.

******************

Sports equipment mfrs always have gimmick bullshit sales pitches and often they bear no relation to what's going on in the sport itself. The sport, as sport, I mean.

They bear great relation to the sport's consumerist aspect, and the desire to equate "gear progress" with sport change or sport improvement.

[Tutuko]

sorry but it seems to me that the only substantial change of the tlt6 is the loss of acti-flex, I agree everything else pretty much unchanged.. where do you still see it (acti flex)?

Yeh, back-tracked on that one and corrected myself earlier.

[marshalolson]

the club slice through the grass & soil easier.

Which would imply the the club turns or deflects less in the presence of resistance, by enhancing its mass distribution. And that enables the ball to track truer.

To make the clubhead want to track straighter, and thus cause a straighter shot, you evenly weight it around a perimeter that encircles the desired strike zone on the club face.

In a skiing analogy that would imply perimeter weighting in the tip and tail.

[ejjski]

Maybe we should talk about golf clubs etc. in a separate thread. Just saying--the perimeter weighting issue was quite interesting, but it seems best left as a unique question with different answers and interpretations.

[Hugh Conway]

Just did a quick calculation, and came up with a 22g weight saving for exchanging paulowina wood with air/hc. The even more inaccurate estimate of reduced moment of rotation says about 3%.

For the soul 7, the weight reduction is 21grams, obviously.

Paulownia? Why not Balsa at that point? Anyone used Endgrain Balsa for a ski core or is it just to much of a pain to profile it to the core shape?

[Toby]

It's my understanding that balsa as a surfboard construction component is far more susceptible to water ingress issues than paulownia, with not too much of a weight advantage if the wood is carefully chosen. I imagine similar issues might apply to ski construction.

[Aldburg]

Anyone with 4FRNT , Liberty, or KLINT rumors?

[Hugh Conway]

It's my understanding that balsa as a surfboard construction component is far more susceptible to water ingress issues than paulownia

Issues like rot? I can see that; birch is about as rot resistant as balsa, paulownia/catalpa/kirri ranks better. guess cost might be a factor - paulownia isn't really cheap in my searching in the US, but it is cheap in Oz

[creaky fossil]

1) Which would imply the the club turns or deflects less in the presence of resistance, by enhancing its mass distribution. And that enables the ball to track truer.

2) In a skiing analogy that would imply perimeter weighting in the tip and tail.

1) Nope. Solipsism at work here. Marshal, you may be an accomplished athlete in a sport or two, but golf obviously isn't one of those sports. Stick to what you know. You know... expensive gear for Trutafari Hipsterii. The hipster doesn't like golf, so you can safely be ignorant there.

2) Not really, skis don't work like golf clubs.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

skis don't work like golf clubs.

Thank god.

[westoxified]

2) Not really, skis don't work like golf clubs.

Obviously you don't tee anything up, pussy.

[Toby]

Issues like rot? I can see that; birch is about as rot resistant as balsa, paulownia/catalpa/kirri ranks better. guess cost might be a factor - paulownia isn't really cheap in my searching in the US, but it is cheap in Oz

Yeah, rot. Balsa wicks water very well and then rots. Paulownia isn't such a problem, although obviously water ingress is still undesirable.

[hop]

Anyone with 4FRNT , Liberty, or KLINT rumors?

Since we're talking rumors, I heard KLINT went so big so fast they blew up and are now done.

[tharmor]

Yes, Klint dropped all its athletes at least. I'm not sure if their simply restructuring tho

[fat yeti]

Heard that as well.

Since we're talking rumors, I heard KLINT went so big so fast they blew up and are now done.