Marathon Training During Ski Season?

**dark_star** · 11-12-2012, 07:23 AM

I've been running for years, ran a bunch of half marathons and two marathons. I live in Boston, the home of the Boston Marathon. if you've never been here during the boston marathon, it's an inspirational event, and just about everyone remotely athletic I know decides to pick up their running game or register for a race or try to qualify, etc after each running.

So, I've been thinking about making a big training push to qualify for the Boston sometime in the next year or two, which means shaving about 35 minutes off my time (or taking my pace from >8:00/mile to 7:00 mile - BQ time is 3:06). For non-runners, that's a LOT of work, and means running 35 miles/wk regularly as well as speed workouts, etc. It requires a sustained commitment and constant training; i.e., running 5-6 days/week.

Problem is- I love to friggin' ski and am already trying to think about how to integrate training in with ski season, where ideally I'd be skiing 2x/week or more, which would make it hard to keep up a rigorous training schedule. I imagine it can be done, though, so my question is: does anyone here have experience in making it happen? Anyone here train year round for marathons (or any other endurance-type sport) and if so, any tips for integrating both sports? Tips for avoiding injuries, etc? I just imagine that it's tough to ski all day and then run 15 miles (or vise versa).

Thanks!

**Stu Gotz** · 11-12-2012, 08:02 AM

Tues: Track Workout (Yasso 800's)
Thurs: Tempo Run
Sun: LSD

Skiing will be your off-day cross training.

**Brock Landers** · 11-12-2012, 08:25 AM

raise money like everyone else does so you dont have to qualify

then you can train and ski a little easier

**dark_star** · 11-12-2012, 10:09 AM

Yeah, I know there are other options to run the race, but my goal is to qualify and do it the hard way. Not quite the same, IMO...

**4matic** · 11-12-2012, 10:24 AM

I skied with a guy that was training for a marathon. He was such a pussy because he was afraid of getting hurt and risking his marathon training.

**Karl Stall** · 11-12-2012, 10:28 AM

I recommend finding a running group populated by faster runners than you. I run with a crew called the 5:30 cause thats when we run every morning. You will get used to it and meet friends that will inspire you. It sucks but it's worth it - average easy hour pace on non-workout days is 7:20-7:50 so I'm always pushing. Three-year anniversary 12/1 and it has been one of the great things in my life! Good luck - I am trying to qualify 4/28 in Eugene, but I only need a 3:15

**Karl Stall** · 11-12-2012, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by 4matic

I skied with a guy that was training for a marathon. He was such a pussy because he was afraid of getting hurt and risking his marathon training.

haha - it does stress you out but what can you do - I jacked my back a week before leadville this year but the wakesurfing was worth it! still finished.

**dark_star** · 11-12-2012, 10:46 AM

Yeah, skiing in general risks injury and I accept that. Am not going to slow down because of acute injury risk. You can break your leg if some asshole falls on you in the liftline; it's a reality of our sport. Thanks for the advice.

My other option is just to get old and wait until my age group's qual times get lower, ha ha!

**GeezerSteve** · 11-12-2012, 10:51 AM

Different muscle group. IME, skiing cuts down my running stride. Lift-served skiing makes me a slower runner. Touring makes me an even slower runner. Multi-day mountaineering with a full pack even slower. The latter two did not affect, or may have actually helped, my ultra times because stride length is not that big a deal when trail running.

Best o' luck

**Mofro261** · 11-12-2012, 11:04 AM

This is why I could never motivate for a spring marathon- too much time away from the slopes at the height of winter. I ended up trying to do long runs on a friday (during work) and I'd do stupid shit like run 8-10miles at 5am and still try to hit the slopes at 9am. I was more worried about a running injury fucking up my ski time than vice versa

Also at least for me to run consistent sub-7 marathons, my training required closer to 60 miles/week than 35. I like Stu's plan 'cept I needed to run more like 6 days/ than 3-4. I was a big fan of Yasso 800's/track work outs but at the same time they scared the crap out of me because of the intensity.

**Viva** · 11-12-2012, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by dark_star

... Boston, the home of the Boston Marathon.

Well, God Damn! I never would have fucking guessed.

**::: :::** · 11-12-2012, 12:21 PM

ever tried "run less, run faster"?
not for couch to [whateverdistance] runners, but good for folks with a base who want to get faster.
still 6x/wk exercise, just mixing in something else to get aerobic training without the beating that running can put you through.
the something else could be indoor cycling on a trainer so that it'd be easier to roll out at OdarkThirty in mid-week winter to get your time in

i did it to improve my 10k a few years ago and it definitely worked at getting me faster.

it is similar to other programs in basic structure - just like stu gotz said in the second post: track, intervals, lsd

[edit to add]
they have programs for various distances, but they're all basically structured the same
book is here at amazon

**sirbumpsalot** · 11-12-2012, 12:25 PM

One year I couldn't manage more than 35 miles per week and ski. Plus it was tough to move the long run around and really messed up the schedule. I would run the long run on a thursday and ski the weekend. I found myself doing 3-4 mile runs after skiing at 9000ft just to get some miles in and that's tough. Just remain flexible.

The next year I just had to give up skiing as I was more serious and running up to 60 mpw. Ended up with a busted Achilles and a tibial sfx.

Although it can be done, I would expect you need more than 35mpw to drop your times by 35min.

One idea can be to plan a spring marathon and a fall marathon. Use the spring marathon as tuneup/buildup to work your base but don't plan on racing it, just treat it as a long tempo. Then train hard in the summer to get your mileage up and fine tune your speed in Sept. Then bust it all out in October to try for your qualifier.

I personally took off from Feb to Oct this year to heal, and now am left trying to juggle as you are for a spring marathon so I started early in Oct rather than Nov to get my base up. I plan my spring mary to be a fun run really.

**Brock Landers** · 11-12-2012, 02:03 PM

I'd agree with that ^^...training in the winter sucks anyway, do the ski/run more thing to do a spring marathon, then ramp it up for a fall qualifying marathon. Then you get Boston in 2014

**leroy jenkins** · 11-12-2012, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by acinpdx

ever tried "run less, run faster"?
not for couch to [whateverdistance] runners, but good for folks with a base who want to get faster.
still 6x/wk exercise, just mixing in something else to get aerobic training without the beating that running can put you through.
the something else could be indoor cycling on a trainer so that it'd be easier to roll out at OdarkThirty in mid-week winter to get your time in

i did it to improve my 10k a few years ago and it definitely worked at getting me faster.

it is similar to other programs in basic structure - just like stu gotz said in the second post: track, intervals, lsd

I am not much of a runner, and have never done a marathon, but working out multiple times a day will build shittons of endurance. If you don't have the time to run hours a day, and who does, do two 45 minute sprints a day pushing for speed. Speed and endurance will both improve.

**GeezerSteve** · 11-12-2012, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

I am not much of a runner, and have never done a marathon, but working out multiple times a day will build shittons of endurance.

Recovery is a very important part of training. 2-a-day training runs is okay, but only if you build in ample recovery time into your training.

I've run a shit load of ultras and marathons. My key is to not give a shit about my race finishing times.

**iceman** · 11-12-2012, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Viva

Well, God Damn! I never would have fucking guessed.

They're tricky like that.

**hutash** · 11-12-2012, 07:53 PM

Pussy, Paul Ryan could have qualified easily.

**dark_star** · 11-12-2012, 08:08 PM

Thanks again for all the advice. A lot of the advice I'm taking re: training is coming from my Dad, who ran many marathons in his thirties with a best time of 2:44- not too shabby. He claims he didn't miss a run for two years, and suggested a base of 35 miles/week minimum. That said, as many are pointing out, there are advantages to cross-training, and it certainly can make things more fun. I've been swimming 2-3x/week on top of running 5 days/week, which is great. Probably won't help with speed, but I enjoy it.

I like the spring/fall marathon plan- It'll still be a stretch for me to make it happen this year, but it'll be excellent training time no matter what, even if the qualifier itself is next year.

Big Steve- ultramarathons? Crazy! How'd you make that leap!

**neufox47** · 11-12-2012, 08:39 PM

Buy an airdyne bike, they're cheap on cl. Use it for your first workout after skiing, if you get any evidence of a repetitive motion injury, use the bike more and run less. Use it for a lot of your intervals. 30s sprint 30s rest x 30 times, 5mile fast 2 mile slow for 35 miles.

Your biggest training need is to increase your vo2 and endurance. Obviously running specific training is extremely important, but most runners rely too heavily on actual running IMO. Get your long runs in and concentrate on your form during them, but lean on the airdyne for a lot of your intervals and vo2 training. I've watched a ironman athlete at my gym rely really heavily on the airdyne due to injuries, and his times have gotten better as a result. One because he's not injured and missing workouts and two because he's doing a lot more intervals.

Also buy a foam roller and a lacrosse ball and do soft tissue work. Do glute activation before every workout. Don't run through nagging injuries.

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**tarkman1** · 11-12-2012, 10:40 PM

Dark Star - Pick a marathon that does not conflict with ski season. 35 minutes is a lot to cut off a marathon time. What are your 10k and 5k times? If you don't have speed right now, you'll have to work on that as well as a mileage base.

Boston registration isn't until September. I'd say work on speed during ski season and then ease into longer mileage to prep for a marathon. I say this from the temperate clime of Santa Barbara where hot, sticky summers aren't a hindrance to running. The longer days of summer will make getting in those longer runs easier without dependence on a headlamp.

**tillPOWdidwepart** · 11-13-2012, 12:59 AM

I'd say its all about priorities. It sounds like you can do it and have a plan to accomplish your goal. If running the Boston Marathon is your first priority, then sometimes you'll have to sacrifice skiing to reach that goal. Of course you can do both, but you simply need to adjust which activity takes the hit when it comes down to it... I've been interested in ultras recently which would all but eliminate my season. I just baked my gloves and bought some new gear. Even settled back into my relaxed winter routine. There won't be any ultras in the near future...

Priorities set!

**GeezerSteve** · 11-13-2012, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by tillPOWdidwepart

I've been interested in ultras recently which would all but eliminate my [ski] season.

Doesn't need to. Ultras (trail courses) and lift-skiing are not mutually exclusive. Trail ultras and ski touring can go hand-in-hand if you aren't too worried about your finishing times.

Road marathons and trail ultras, and training for each, do very different things to the body. In a road marathon (and training for the same), you body repeats the same motion over and over and over again, and that develops a specific muscle group to work in a limited range of motion. By contrast, trail ultras involve a much wider range of muscle use and wider ROM. Trail running also trains your eyes and feet to work together and develops quick feet, good for skiing. I always run at least a couple ultras in the spring, and often my primary training is comprised of running short miles in town during the week, some lift skiing and plenty of touring. But, again, I don't get hung up on finishing times. My spring ultras are good training for late spring/summer tours too.

**dark_star** · 11-14-2012, 07:18 AM

Neufox- I've used a foam roller for IT band, what's the lacrosse ball for? And you're absolutely right, looked up Airdyne bikes on CL and there are about 6 for sale near me, all dirt cheap! A very solid idea.

As people have pointed out, in the end it does come down to priorities, and I think when push comes to shove it'll be very hard to turn down skiing for running during prime season. But I'm going to try my best to make it work and we'll see what happens. I like the idea of working on speed and using the spring marathon as a trainer.

Sadly, this is the problem with dabbling in so many sports!

Originally Posted by neufox47

Buy an airdyne bike, they're cheap on cl. Use it for your first workout after skiing, if you get any evidence of a repetitive motion injury, use the bike more and run less. Use it for a lot of your intervals. 30s sprint 30s rest x 30 times, 5mile fast 2 mile slow for 35 miles.

Your biggest training need is to increase your vo2 and endurance. Obviously running specific training is extremely important, but most runners rely too heavily on actual running IMO. Get your long runs in and concentrate on your form during them, but lean on the airdyne for a lot of your intervals and vo2 training. I've watched a ironman athlete at my gym rely really heavily on the airdyne due to injuries, and his times have gotten better as a result. One because he's not injured and missing workouts and two because he's doing a lot more intervals.

Also buy a foam roller and a lacrosse ball and do soft tissue work. Do glute activation before every workout. Don't run through nagging injuries.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using TGR Forums

**Tuckerman** · 11-14-2012, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by dark_star

Anyone here train year round for marathons (or any other endurance-type sport) and if so, any tips for integrating both sports? Tips for avoiding injuries, etc? I just imagine that it's tough to ski all day and then run 15 miles (or vise versa).

Thanks!

I do sort of. When I have made a decision to run a sub 24 hour 100 it involves training twice a day. If I run say 6 days a week twice a day it gives me 60 miles per week thats getting up at 4:30 - 5 am for a run normally at the gym on a TM then after I take my kid to the mtn for gate training I run or do speed work and strength and conditioning.

I have followed crossfitendurance.com with good results. Its a bitch but doable if you want it. During heavy trainig I see a Dr (chiropractor) who specializes in A.R.T. twice a week. I had IT band issues and with the help of ART and proper footwear (minimalists) I have been IT band pain free.

The toughest thing for me is the nights I have to run a half marathon on a TM, so booooooring.