Praxis Protest vs DPS L138

[auvgeek]

^^Glad you chimed in. Let's trade on a bonafide pow day so I don't have be kicked in the nuts by kidwoo.

[kidwoo]

I'm pretty much paralized right now, so I'd have to ask you to grab my foot for me anyway.

[JohnnyDomination]

^^Glad you chimed in. Let's trade on a bonafide pow day so I don't have be kicked in the nuts by kidwoo.

I'd love to get more time on the L138, might be possible with how many skis you have now!

[marshalolson]

I know Marshall and I'm sure many others who own DPS boards rip, but from personal experience, every person I've seen riding them would fall under the banner of "woefully mediocre."

that is a pretty strange observation, man.

i am willing to put cold-hard-cash down and bet that DPS has the highest % of its skis sold to heli-guides out of any brand on the planet.

but either way, plenty of people buy iPods and macbook pros and fill them with katy perry and justin beiber and inane rambling on facebok, not some super heady underground music or maximize their high powered tool, editing sick soon-to-be viral videos; plenty of people buy ferraris and never break 85mph on their drive to an upscale dining locality, opposed to drive like michael schumacher; tons of people buy park and pipe skis and suck around on groomers rather than get inverted or slide nasty triple kink rails; plenty of people buy race carve skis who can't buy a turn rather than shred like ligety; plenty of people buy super tech $600-700 arcteryx and patagonia jackets that never see more than brushing their car off in the am.

none of that means that the product is incapable of being used for its intended purpose...

if you dig the brand and appreciate what they are doing, then support them. praxis is rad people and if you think their program speaks most directly to you, then support the cause.

if you think DPS is unscrupulous, then you think that i, personally, am unscrupulous. i would beg to disagree

[glademaster]

I'm sure DPS makes skis that can be used at the highest levels of freeskiing, and there are clearly people who push the gear and use it to it's full potential. I would love to ride some of their products if they were even remotely competitively priced, but at twice the price of most other skis out there, I would expect twice the performance, and I am confident that said level of performance is not there.

Shit, DPS might just be making the best skis out there, but they still aren't twice as good as everything else, so they just aren't worth it to me.

My statement about the typical skiers I see riding DPS gear was a personal observation from my corner of the ski world. I've never been heli or cat skiing, but it makes sense to me that you would see a lot of them in that market. Maybe all the pounders I see skidding around the resort on their $1500 carbon planks turn into Hoji-clones when they ride untracked with their fellow aristocrats.

[marshalolson]

I would love to ride some of their products if they were even remotely competitively priced

dps HYBRID skis ($799) are within $10 of the equivalent praxis ski ($699+90=$789). the dps PURE ski has around $400 more worth of carbon in it than the HYBRID. strangely, it is $400 more expensive. you gotta compare apples to apples man.

"carbon" is an element. its also a VERY broad family of materials. some of these materials are pretty inexpensive relative to fiberglass - such as the materials in the praxis carbon and the HYRBID; some versions of "carbon" are wickedly expensive - such as the prepreg used in higher jets, formula 1 chassis, and DPS PURE skis. each different material has a very different set of attributes, and affect the ride in different ways.

NOBODY that has skied the same DPS ski in a PURE and HYBRID will argue that they ride the same. weather you are after one ride or the other is a conversation for a different day.

[Tutuko]

getting off topic... but a major reason people i know, including myself, buy DPS is for the weight savings of carbon skis while retaining great performance. The proverbial performance, weight and price: pick two, applies strongly here.
Either way, gapers will always prevail if you decide ski market demographics from the lift lineup.

[auvgeek]

I'm sure DPS makes skis that can be used at the highest levels of freeskiing, and there are clearly people who push the gear and use it to it's full potential. I would love to ride some of their products if they were even remotely competitively priced, but at twice the price of most other skis out there, I would expect twice the performance, and I am confident that said level of performance is not there.

Shit, DPS might just be making the best skis out there, but they still aren't twice as good as everything else, so they just aren't worth it to me.

Shit, why buy a pair of brand new Praxis boards when you can get a pair of similar ones (if not Praxis) for 1/2 as much in Gear Swap? As is typical of most things, ski price vs. performance is an asymptotic scale—you pay more and more for smaller and smaller performance gains. The question is where the cost outweighs the increased performance. Everybody has their own threshold.

Edit: And I'm pretty sure that's the point of this thread. So people who haven't skied both (or either) can decide whether it's worth it for them. But like Marshal said, hybrid DPS are relatively competitive in pricing, although Praxis still wins with their various sales and maggot coupons. Oh, and for whatever reason those 202 L138s are much damper than any other pure carbon ski I've used. No idea why.

[bodywhomper]

if the op is actually thinking about which of the two brands/models to purchase, imo, you will tweak your skiing as necessary to enjoy either of these skis. that said, i suggest researching the various versions of the skis. if you find a version that sounds right for you, the l138 pure should be an easy decision if you're going to be touring on them. I am guessing you probably will tour with them (I highly suggest it). these types of boards are great for all the local hits in the slt area for most (or all) soft snow days. they have increased the variety of snow conditions that are a pure joy to ski that i encounter in the tahoe-area BC (e.g. deep saturated baked slush - big spring dump followed by a day or two of warm weather).

glademaster, i can't help but think that your neck of the woods is ann arbor. i imagine that you ski or have lived and skied in other places. but considering the ann arbor thing, your comment made me lol.

[pfluffenmeister]

Oh, and for whatever reason those 202 L138s are much damper than any other pure carbon ski I've used. No idea why.

pant, pant, pant ...





this also please me.

... and re: stiffness of the 202 138 flex2 vs 190 120 flex3, i too am awaiting a comparo (they should arrive tomorrow).
i imagine they will be very close as the 192 138 flex 2 that i currently have hand flexs a bit stiffer than the flex 3 120.

[sqikunst]

I don't want to sound like a dick but the 400 usd more in "prepreg" is the 400 usd saved by producing in china mate. Pay the fixed costs in the states or in Europe and we can start talking about prepreg and how it is soo much more expensive. You are one of the most respected posters on tgr so I don't want to flak but I grew up in a production family and the dream factor of prepreg is not the fact it is used in aero space but the fact you employees can't fuck up mixing resins which in turn affect cure times so u in effect remove the idiot factor. If that is the question I can get a composite bow, carbon tech manufacturer to chime in who are also in production in SEA. Prepreg also does not have to be woven which is expensive as fuck and while DPS makes a beautiful product this idea that producing them costs soo much more becomes void. Cheaper electricity all the machine techs u could want are all readily available in china. Parts are cheap tooling is cheap labour and rent is cheap. Like you said DPS is in many ways the apple of the ski world. Innovation is the marketing used to sell it sans apple. Keith and praxis put their production and resources to use for tgr. While they might not use prepreg they cater to a very specific market segment. To the people that can't drop 6k on heli skiing being the beaters that we are. I am a praxis fan boy and I might seem biased mate but I wouldn't drop raw material cost at the fore front of price justification. It's sleek marketing, unusual production techniques, weight, and clean top sheets that people pay for. Would I like to have a pair of 138's of course would I swallow the blue pill? No.

[JohnnyDomination]

the dream factor of prepreg is not the fact it is used in aero space but the fact you employees can't fuck up mixing resins which in turn affect cure times so u in effect remove the idiot factor.

While I agree this is partially correct the true draw to prepreg carbon is a perfect or near perfect resin to fiber ratio, which will yield the highest strength with the least amount of weight. It also ensures repeatability production-wise as well as failure mode-wise. Which is what I believe you were getting at.

For DPS the whole point is to make bomber skis that are extremely light. Carbon is much more expensive than fiberglass is and in the end DPS is a business that is trying to make money. If people are going to pay $1200 for a pair of skis, why wouldn't you charge that? and judging by how many pairs of DPS I see on the mountain clearly people are willing to pay it. Whether the weight savings is worth the price tag that's dependent on whos buying them. I have a pair of DPS I got used and the lightness is awesome. However not sure I'd buy them new, but I'm a fucking cheap skate so... Different strokes for different folks (Sorry I've been on a cliche roll this week and wanted to keep it going)

[CaliBrit]

Simple business, supply and demand controls price.

If you have demand you can limit supply, charge more, make the same money from a smaller production and have way less hassles.

I promise the DPS margin on a pure ski at $1200 is at least 50% higher than anyone in the business (peeps like Wagner excluded).

[marshalolson]

What a funny thread.

No desire to argue, just wish to offer info that most don't have, and tried to amswer the op's question totally honestly, as well as the follow up with data to clear up a few missconceptions.

In my capacity as retail sales manager for Dps, I have spent 4 years analyzing retail pricing and dealer margins for most brands out there, and look very closely at the total landed costs of most skis out there... including the individual component costs, transport costs of components, labor components, tooling costs,etc

All I can say is that I very much disagree with skykunst and Calibrit's comments, to the point that the actual data is the opposite of your hypothesis.

You are totally welcome to your opinion, and I have no desire to change your minds. All I can say is be carefully about trying to pass off uninformed opinion as fact.

Cheers, done with this thread.

[spindrift]

I'll try to formulate some useful additional thoughts on the Protest, etc... but I have to say this thread sure went off in the weeds. It beats me how we got from discussing differences between some of the best designed, best built skis on the market, and by implication two of the most innovative ski companies in the world - to some crazy mud slinging.

My working fleet happens to be all Praxis at this point. No doubt I'm a fan. But that's no knock on DPS. If I had to cull the industry to 4 or 5 ski manufacturers, the first two on my keep list would, without hesitation, be Praxis and DPS. The folks I've met from both companies are the real deal. I think we are damn lucky to have them doing what they are doing.

I hope Marshall is willing to jump back in...

[jacket]

All I know about my 192 L138 pure's is that they have been on my feet during some of the most mind-blowing ski days of my life. I find them to be the most intuitive and responsive pair of skis I have ever used, honestly. The DPS pure construction is something special and definitely different than other carbon skis out there. I completely appreciate that they are expensive and a non-starter for most people due to that, however, if you are the kind of person who buys new skis with some regularity it is not that big of a difference. I'm not at all saying everyone should run out and drop the money on new pures but they are unique and to some, it's worth the upcharge. Lastly, to insinuate that the gapers sliding around on dps are more gapery than everyone else sliding around on some other trendy sticks is absurd.

I love my American made skis as much as anyone and wish DPS were also made in America but they're not, so whatever, I still love them

[auvgeek]

It beats me how we got from discussing differences between some of the best designed, best built skis on the market, and by implication two of the most innovative ski companies in the world - to some crazy mud slinging.

+1.

If anyone in the PNW gets a pair of 196 stiff Protests and wants to swap for the 202 L138s for a few laps, hit me up.

[sierraskier]

and back to the OP's question....

to split hairs, it will depend on which generation of each ski we are talking about as there have been changes over their lifetimes. I am sure some people will disagree with me but this is my experience.

L138 192 R3 F2: powder specific, not an all mtn ski, not for when the resort gets beat up. not even really a resort ski. wants to go super fast in pow. mind blowing in deep untouched pow. more like a praxis powder than a protest. painful in anything firm.

188 Protest from about 3 seasons ago (previous gen): more versatile, more effective edge. my go-to ski for anything soft. easier to drive a traditional turn with when desired, easier to traverse on. still surfy, but softer flex and shape allows it to still be very skiable in firm/crud.


Disclaimer: I have not been on either, but am guessing that a 202 138 R2 or R1 will ski differently and a lot more like a Protest than my 192 138 R3. The reason I think this is the R1 and R2 is a more subtle rocker profile with less kick in the tip than my R3's, which results in more effective edge and more ski in contact with the snow. In fact, from what I have seen, I think I would really rather be on a pair of 138 192 R1 or R2's than my R3's.

EDIT: and just to add, after reading JFE24's post below, that my comments about the skis above are RELATIVE TO EACH OTHER. meaning that the Protest by itself is not a versatile all mountain ski, just that it is a more versatile ski than the 138 (and relatively versatile for such a fun, surfy ski in powder). as others have said, this boils down to getting 90% of the great things the powder board can do in pow without sacrificing as much in the other areas (traversing, carving a turn on firm, etc...). also, I don't think the 138's *need* to go fast, but they want to, and they do this a little better than the Protest. especially for the R3's. there is nothing I would rather have on an huge untouched face in AK. again, trade-offs between the two.

[JFE24]

some, list blister, have gone on at length about the relative versatility of the protest compared to other pow skis.

Figured I'd better go back and read my review, see if I needed to clarify anything.

Long and short, I'll stand by everything I wrote. The whole point of my review was - after discusssing pow performance - to figure out how far away from intended conditions the Protest would still work. And if you read carefully, that's what I did, and how I set that review up. And the primary reason I did that was because lots of Protest owners do start sounding like it's super rad at everything, all the time.

As for versatility, I did also note this:

"So what 125mm underfoot (or fatter) skis are better on groomers? The Black Diamond Megawatt and (impressively) the Black Diamond Gigawatt come to mind. Both have far more conventional shapes than the Protest, with huge shovels that give way to relatively traditional sidecut dimensions. (In other words, leaving aside their rocker profiles for a minute, the dimensions are closer to that of a race ski that has been fattened up to handle deep snow, and both do that very well.)"

The Protest is definitely a relatively versatile pow ski. Depending on what you mean by relatively versatile....

One other thing: this is just me, of course, but no part of me felt like I needed to bump up to the 196 Protest. There was nothing about the 187s that left me feeling like I needed more ski, for whatever that's worth.

p.s. And apologies to everyone for the lack of a 138 review yet. It's been a crazy busy summer/fall (well, 2 years, but whatever). What I will say for now is that it is definitely not my experience that the 192 Lotus 138 Pure needs a lot of speed. As I mention in the Protest review, the 138s were skiing super tight trees in Japan super easily at slower speeds. They definitely do fast well, too, but I didn't find them to need a lot of speed by any means.

[pfluffenmeister]

^^I'll be really curious to hear your thoughts once you have some time on snow. And let me know how the flex compares to those flex 3 L120s — my guess is it'll be about the same. These are damn stiff.

just unwrapped them.

whoa ...


the hand flex is uber stiff.
muuuuuch stiffer than the 192 138 R2 F2; like a different ski.

softest to stiffest (hand flex):

190 120 F3 (red top)
192 138 R2 F2
202 138 R2 F2 (by a mile)

[auvgeek]

^^That's kinda what I thought, but I guess the L120 F3 is weaker than I figured. I knew that was gonna be the case when you said they were about the same as the 192 F2. These beasts put other "stiff" skis (Renegade, C&D, etc) to shame. Almost no flex in the middle third of the ski. Like I said "damn stiff."

But don't worry, they're not that demanding. Like Marshal said in another thread, these R/R skis pivot easier the stiffer they are. Can't wait to ski these again.

Sorry for turning this thread into my own personal shine to an outdated ski.

[JohnnyDomination]

As I mention in the Protest review, the 138s were skiing super tight trees in Japan super easily at slower speeds. They definitely do fast well, too, but I didn't find them to need a lot of speed by any means.

I'd second this for the 202 L138. The length seems a bit scary but I found them to be surprisingly responsive and confidence inspiring in tighter tree situations.

[CaliBrit]

For info I was not mud slinging merely making an observation. I too would go for a low volume, high margin business model. And Marshal, if you are not making GREAT margins on those prices and offshore manufacture I would add a new guy to your negotiating team

[concretejungle]

Personally I'm always a fan of the "everything is made in China/overseas because it's cheaper argument." It couldn't be that they have better technology and more skilled workers. Nope, couldn't be that.

[marshalolson]

And Marshal, if you are not making GREAT margins on those prices and offshore manufacture I would add a new guy to your negotiating team

see, this is what i mean about spouting off without having any idea about what you are talking about.

DPS sells the vast majority of skis at wholesale to retailer partners.

micro-brands like praxis, wagner, folsom, bluehouse etc sell entirely direct, and many small (surface) and midsize (moment) brands have direct sales as their primary distribution channel.

direct sales literally have ~3x margin as any item sold in a conventional wholesale/retail partner setting.