Will a larger liner possibly fit an undersized shell?

[raueda1]

Looking to find a way out of F--ed up boot size situation. I got Nordica Speedmachine 110's mondo 28.5, so shell is M 28/28.5. My feet are slightly different sizes. For climbing shoes I usually mix sizes, 11.5 left and 12 right. Anyway, the left boot fit is perfect. But my right big toe needs bit more room. I could punch the toe but there's nobody nearby that I trust to do it right. And regardless, the liner itself is seems too snug - my toe bulges significantly against the liner's neoprene toe cap putting it under pressure/compression. FWIW I have about 1/2 " room behind my heel with liner out, so I'm on the snug end shell-wise.

Plan A: Get THIN Intuition liners (FX Race?) on the assumption that the right foot would have a little more room than the stock liners giving toe more room to breath.

Plan B: Upsize the liners to size Mondo 29 (US size 12). It seems like that would really be the right size liner anyway, but the obvious problem is that this jumps up a shell size. Is it hopeless to think that a mondo 29 liner could squeeze into a smaller mondo 28/28.5 shell without severe buckling or distortion? Seems like the 29 liner would be about 10mm longer than the current 28.5 I don't really have anyplace to just try and see.

Anybody try the +1 approach? Ideas?

[MarcusBrody]

I've put sized up (thermo) liners in boots, but my purpose was to take up some extra space, not to gain it.

I read about someone doing this the other day though (possibly in the Blister Cochise review, though I'm not sure), in order to alleviate toe cramping caused by too short liners.

[pfluffenmeister]

^^^ yeah, i think that a larger liner is going to take up space, not make more available.


how about an Intuition liner, when you heat mold it put on a couple of those thick toe "things" (my vocabulary seems to be running into a brick wall) to make extra volume in the liner's toebox.

[I've seen black diamonds!]

My right foot is also bigger. The solution that has worked for me is to buy a pair of boots that fits my left foot with minimal mods, then let a boot fitter go to work on the right. Make the drive to a boot fitter or have uncomfortable boots. Those are probably your only choices.

[raueda1]

My right foot is also bigger. The solution that has worked for me is to buy a pair of boots that fits my left foot with minimal mods, then let a boot fitter go to work on the right. Make the drive to a boot fitter or have uncomfortable boots. Those are probably your only choices.

That was exactly my going in strategy. Didn't work cause I couldn't find a decent fitter that I trusted. I tried a couple that were worthless. I'm in NY, the closest I know to be good is in VT.

^^^ yeah, i think that a larger liner is going to take up space, not make more available.

how about an Intuition liner, when you heat mold it put on a couple of those thick toe "things" (my vocabulary seems to be running into a brick wall) to make extra volume in the liner's toebox.

Yeah, sounds counterintuitive. The thought was that the longer liner would compress toe less - after all, it IS longer - and if it's thin then not take up much more space.

[otto parts]

If you can get your right toe away from the front by leaning hard forward, a double toe cap with 28 Intuitions sounds like it would be fine. Make sure you stand on a 2x4 to drive your heel in the pocket. Remember, tight buckles during molding = more room after (right foot). Otherwise find a shop and get the punch. You'll still need to have them stretch the liner a bit...

[I've seen black diamonds!]

That was exactly my going in strategy. Didn't work cause I couldn't find a decent fitter that I trusted. I tried a couple that were worthless. I'm in NY, the closest I know to be good is in VT.

So go to VT. Small price to pay for comfortable boots. Also, Vermont has skiing, beer, food, foliage, Subarus...

Edit: Where in NY? There is a good boot fitter in Worcester, MA, which might be closer for you.

[Cocximus]

I have undersized boots. I found that if I put a few cuts at the bottom of the liner it allows it to expand a bit more upfront. Experiment with thinner insoles. Maybe even take it out of your right boot. A heel lift creates a bit more space upfront.

[pfluffenmeister]

also not sure if you have insoles, but a foot bed with a raised arch will get you more space in front.

[Sparwood Dave]

Like Daught said - just snip some of the stitches around the base of the toe cap to let it open up. You have nothing to lose and if it works you just saved $$$. It will not be noticably colder on your toes.

[Mrogers21]

So go to VT. Small price to pay for comfortable boots. Also, Vermont has skiing, beer, food, foliage, Subarus...

Edit: Where in NY? There is a good boot fitter in Worcester, MA, which might be closer for you.

Do you live near NYC? I was amazed to discover a boot fitter in Southeastern CT when I was visiting my family from NM a few years back. I'm not claiming to be the worlds most knowledgeable person on the intricacies that go into fitting/moulding a boot but I have spent enough time around them, and in my opinion this guy in CT has been doing it forever and really knew his shit. They're still my favorite boot, going on their 4th season and I just replaced the liners a second time.

[raueda1]

Like Daught said - just snip some of the stitches around the base of the toe cap to let it open up. You have nothing to lose and if it works you just saved $$$. It will not be noticably colder on your toes.

I did it. Stitching is on the top of the toe cap, the bottom is glued to the sole. Anyway, with liners on the gap was about 1/2 inch. The fucking tension that this thing was creating on my toe tip was unbelievable. It wasn't entirely obvious how much until it was gone. The stock liners suck but toe box still needs room.

I'm headed to VT for thanksgiving to get the toe punched and try on various Intuitions. Stowe already got 4" on the top and the guys up there are psyched for a good season.

[L7]

Guess you're done. My two suggestions would have been to START with a shell fit and to cut the liner underneath to allow the toe box to stretch out. Trying a footbed if you haven't also can control the lengthening of the foot. But hey, you went right to mutilating your liner....that's good too I guess.

[Cocximus]

Yea cutting the bottom is a lot less drastic than opening stitching and it allows quite a bit of expansion.

You might want to give zipfits a thought too. You can push your foot back with additional omfit in the tongue. They're toe box have a tight fit but it's stretchy. Compared to my ghost liners they feel half a size smaller but they stretch to accommodate. Im no pro, these are my personal observations.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Intuitions at the size, not higher. There is also the power wrap plug if it's really that snug. You could probably just use the regular ones. Use big thick toe caps and buckle TIGHT when you mold.
vouis la

[Jethro]

I have size 28 Factors, and I went with 29 Intuition Power wraps. The longer length liner helped with my big toe issue, same as you. Their liners are all the same thickness. I did this after several emails with Intuition about my boot fit. They had good advice on measuring you feet, and on selecting liners. My AT setup is now super snug through the upper leg and comfortable in the leg area.

[raueda1]

Not quite done. I'll still punch the shell regardless. But on mutilating the liner - it proved that the liner WAS contributing to the problem. they'll go in the trash. And now I've confirmed how the Intuitions shouldn't feel. The pieces have all fallen into place.

[raueda1]

I have size 28 Factors, and I went with 29 Intuition Power wraps. The longer length liner helped with my big toe issue, same as you. Their liners are all the same thickness. I did this after several emails with Intuition about my boot fit. They had good advice on measuring you feet, and on selecting liners. My AT setup is now super snug through the upper leg and comfortable in the leg area.

Hell Yeah! This confirms my original idea that a bigger liner would be OK cause it provides more length - or less compression in my case, and maybe yours - while not not being so big it won't fit in the shell OK.

[mc51c0]

Looking to find a way out of F--ed up boot size situation. I got Nordica Speedmachine 110's mondo 28.5, so shell is M 28/28.5. My feet are slightly different sizes. For climbing shoes I usually mix sizes, 11.5 left and 12 right. Anyway, the left boot fit is perfect. But my right big toe needs bit more room. I could punch the toe but there's nobody nearby that I trust to do it right. And regardless, the liner itself is seems too snug - my toe bulges significantly against the liner's neoprene toe cap putting it under pressure/compression. FWIW I have about 1/2 " room behind my heel with liner out, so I'm on the snug end shell-wise.

Plan A: Get THIN Intuition liners (FX Race?) on the assumption that the right foot would have a little more room than the stock liners giving toe more room to breath.

Plan B: Upsize the liners to size Mondo 29 (US size 12). It seems like that would really be the right size liner anyway, but the obvious problem is that this jumps up a shell size. Is it hopeless to think that a mondo 29 liner could squeeze into a smaller mondo 28/28.5 shell without severe buckling or distortion? Seems like the 29 liner would be about 10mm longer than the current 28.5 I don't really have anyplace to just try and see.

Anybody try the +1 approach? Ideas?

I have two pairs of boots with larger than shell size liners which both work great. Easily slid in. One of the liners is an Intuition, the other is a Palau. Both are tongued. The Intuition is a 285 from a Maestrale 28.5/29 that is in a Dynafit 28/28.5 boot, the other is a 285 Palau that is in a 27/27.5 Dynafit boot. Both of them fit me better than the OEM size liner. Only thing I needed to change was the position of the top buckle which is a 3 minute job with a screwdriver. These alterations got rid of any heel movement which was my goal. Still have plenty of room at my toes, nothing folded or creased, use generic low volume orthotics. No idea if this is a good move for everyone but it sure worked for me. I have narrow heels. YMMV!

[turnfarmer]

I'm trying this with a 26.5 Hawx XTD. Went for a 27 Tour wrap, Intuition advises 26 on website for this liner. I am looking for toe space, want no pressure on toes for warmth. I haven't molded them yet but I think it will work. Intuition says if liner is crumpled up before molding it won't work. Unmolded it seems ok in shell, just a minor little ridge on sole. Hope to mold this week, will update.

[gregL]

I'm trying this with a 26.5 Hawx XTD. Went for a 27 Tour wrap, Intuition advises 26 on website for this liner. I am looking for toe space, want no pressure on toes for warmth. I haven't molded them yet but I think it will work. Intuition says if liner is crumpled up before molding it won't work. Unmolded it seems ok in shell, just a minor little ridge on sole. Hope to mold this week, will update.

You realize that even if you start with a liner that's longer than your shell, it will be the exact same size as the shell after molding, right? The key to getting the most length is to THIN the EVA at the toe (use toecaps, possibly 2 on each foot). It still won't get any longer than the interior dimension of the shell; that's where punching comes in.

FWIW, the Hawx Ultra XTD 130 is tough to punch for much extra toe length and the feeling of shortness is compounded by the downward angle over the front of the toebox.

[nickwm21]

I run a 29PW+ in a 28.5 dynafit ONE.

I was trying to take up a little volume, but maintain toe room for touring. My inbounds Lupos are 27.5. It works, but next touring boot will be a proper fit.


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[XavierD]

If someone wants to explain to me how stuffing MORE material in a boot which is too tight is gonna help? Simply putting a bigger liner in the boot is gonna give you a bunch of extra folded over and creased up extra material. This will cause more problems.

Intuition is a little different. We used to always size up intuitions, but less so since they went to a thicker foam. Generally this was done to TAKE UP SPACE. Keep in mind not all 28.5 boots have the same fit or length. Compare the lasting of the liner to your boot and go with the size which best matches. The more you heat an intuition the shorter (and thicker) it gets, hence sizing up in the past. If you’re running out of space try and find a thinner liner like a PW plug, pro wrap, or HD race. Adding material isn’t gonna help unless you go get the boot lengthened first.

Keep in mind what works for someone with a similar problem but different boot and different foot won’t necessarily work for you.


Edit: did you ever bother to heat up and mold the stock liners or just jump to cutting them up? The stock liner of a speed machine 110 is pretty rad, but really should be heated up for a performance fit. Both the heel/ankle area and the neoprene toe box have a lot of compression and stretch in them giving much more length. Of course your toe stretched the liner of the boot, it’s supposed too, especially without the shell on to keep your foot back in the dense cork of the liner.
Basically, slow the fuck down, stop jumping to dumb conclusions before you destroy more of your boot.

Also do you have a custom footbed in there? If not, most she’ll and liner kids won’t solve your problems just make new ones.

[alfajores]

If someone wants to explain to me how stuffing MORE material in a boot which is too tight is gonna help? Simply putting a bigger liner in the boot is gonna give you a bunch of extra folded over and creased up extra material. This will cause more problems.

This is my first reaction too. I didn’t read the shell as being too small, but as too small for the liner. In the current size difference, I would think that you will be ok. Definitely make sure that premold the liner isn’t folding at all. This would be pretty terrible after molding. The material won’t shrink, but it will compress and expand.

[turnfarmer]

You realize that even if you start with a liner that's longer than your shell, it will be the exact same size as the shell after molding, right? The key to getting the most length is to THIN the EVA at the toe (use toecaps, possibly 2 on each foot). It still won't get any longer than the interior dimension of the shell; that's where punching comes in.

FWIW, the Hawx Ultra XTD 130 is tough to punch for much extra toe length and the feeling of shortness is compounded by the downward angle over the front of the toebox.

I probably didn't provide enough info on my particular situation. I'm trying to fill volume on my lateral forefoot on my XTD while keeping adequate length. The shells have plenty of toe length for me. The last couple of intuitions I molded that were true to size, the toe box of the liner protruded past the past the stitching of the liner. So I took a gamble on the upsized liner. Without molding it fits the shell with just a tiny wrinkle on the bottom. According to intuitions site, this is okay as long as there aren't big wrinkles.
Still not molded, hope to get to it this week and will report back.