Lance back in the news.

[Canada1]

[QUOTE=PNWbrit;3666856]Busting the worlds most famous and successful (both in terms of his results, decades of non-detection and subsequent dubious business practices) doper would seem me to have great value as a deterrent.

Or maybe we could just move on and stop spending public money chasing him and focus on the future. His success did a hell of alot for professional cycling. Now a US sanctioning body is going to take it all away and we'll hear everything for the next decade about how they are both judge and jury and this is all guys who got caught trying to pull him down for a guarantee of immunity. you know he will go down swinging and make an effort to take everyone with him. And the sport is ripped down by every sports writer in the states and a fringe, niche sport I love is further diminished. Before him, the tour was a wide world of sports summary on a Sunday. Now I can watch every minute live. Cycling needs this turned off and the focus put on today. He can go run around in Aspen with his current girlfriend, his next mistress and send checks to the rest of his harem and herd.

[PNWbrit]

that is fine and dandy and all, but what is the statute of limitations on this stuff?

recollections change over time
evidence gets tainted,
bitnerness and grudges develop etc.

other than murder in a few states, almost every serious violent crime is 7-15 years.
class a felonies are 5-7 years or less (i.e. life in prison)
class b felonies are about 1 year give or take (i.e. 25 years in jail)

we are now entering the seventh? year since the LAST victory. are we arguing that the crimes lance likely committed are this serious and should have such extended statutes of limitations?

USADA aren't bringing criminal charges. I think all they can do is suspend him from competition (in events that are run by sanctioning bodies that subscribe to their jurisdiction?). The Tour results/historical record? It would be up to the ASO to decide.

No doubt Armstrong would lawyer up very heavily to defend his brand's worth.

Before him, the tour was a wide world of sports summary on a Sunday.

So his cheating would be OK because you can watch TDF on cable now?

[GeezerSteve]

Right, USADA is a sports sanctioning entity, not a criminal prosecutor.

Yeah, you tell 'em Canada1! And Barry Bonds and Jose Canseco did so much for baseball, too! Oh, and how about that Second Mile Foundation doing all that neat stuff for underprivileged kids?

Have those who advocate dropping the charges actually read the charging letter? Velo News aptly characterized the charging letter as "painting a dark picture of the Armstrong era." If USADA has the evidence to support the charges, how the hell can USADA not assert the charges?

[Mofro261]

And yet in other news, ex-NASA employees claim the lunar landings were faked.

[PNWbrit]

lunar landings

[marshalolson]

Have those who advocate dropping the charges actually read the charging letter? Velo News aptly characterized the charging letter as "painting a dark picture of the Armstrong era." If USADA has the evidence to support the charges, how the hell can USADA not assert the charges?

i personally am not advocating anything, just questioning a case 100% built on 7-12 year old testimony

[GeezerSteve]

Some of the charges relate to activities as recent as 2010, i.e., less than 2 years ago. The letter gives no indication of the age of the testimony (of the "more than 10 witnesses") upon which the charges are premised. I would think that most of the testimony was obtained relatively recently, i.e., in the past 2 to 3 years. And, of course, if this matter goes to hearing, I would expect most of the witnesses to testify live.

Also, the charging letter alleges a systemic cover up. In the law, when someone engages in a cover up, any time limitations are deemed to toll (i.e., be suspended) until the discovery of the wrongdoing that was covered up.

Thinking as an attorney (which I do, having been one for 25 years), perhaps the better tactic would have been to exclude Lance Armstrong from this charging letter and go after Bruyneel and the 4 doctors. That would have disarmed the hero worshipers and lifted the clutter of publicity from the proceedings.

[PNWbrit]

Well written article here I thought.

[flatlander#2]

Yeah, you tell 'em Canada1! And Barry Bonds and Jose Canseco did so much for baseball, too! Oh, and how about that Second Mile Foundation doing all that neat stuff for underprivileged kids?

Really? You're going to make that jump that a guy whacked out on dope riding a bike=someone like that? Who the fuck are you? Are you a Mennonite?

[marshalolson]

Well written article here I thought.

"USADA, a partnership between the U.S. government and the United States Olympic Committee, is not empowered to charge Armstrong criminally. The drug-testing body, though, could potentially strip the seven-time Tour de France winner of his titles."

direct quote from your article.

[creaky fossil]

Really? You're going to make that jump that a guy whacked out on dope riding a bike=someone like that? Who the fuck are you? Are you a Mennonite?

I didn't see a direct comparison. Where did you see it? I see connections noted and similar themes compared. I see his point.

[PNWbrit]

could potentially strip the seven-time Tour de France winner of his titles."

I think the ASO as organizers/owners of the tour would be responsible for altering the official race record? Unless they abrogated/tied that to the findings of individual national drugs enforcement agencies?

[marshalolson]

jan ullrich, marco pantani, and on and one do not have results altered, and have been busted much more obviously i.e. failed tests and direct evidence, and far closer in time to their glory.

to the best of my knowledge the only results altered ever in cycling were those that literally failed a test DURING the event.

just saying.

[PNWbrit]

jan ullrich, marco pantani, and on and one do not have results altered, and have been busted much more obviously i.e. failed tests and direct evidence, and far closer in time to their glory.

to the best of my knowledge the only results altered ever in cycling were those that literally failed a test DURING the event.

just saying.

So we agree.. USADA findings regarding Armstrong are unlikely to change the tour record book.

[marshalolson]

yeah on the same page. i just think its goofy that every piece of news constantly refers to lance getting stripped, implying that it is both super likely and the right thing to do.

but what, exactly, is the USADA trying to accomplish here? prevent lance from racing in ironmans? or to just taint him in the eyes of public opinion? its not like anyone in their right mind thinks he was clean all those years. maybe they all get bonuses each time they catch someone.

i don't get it. they have a ton of testimony and no evidence....

all LA's legal team needs to do is dig up some random disagreement with each person testifying, which can't be hard b/c LA is a total prick, and say they have an axe to grind and point to the totally clean drug test results conducted day-in day-out for over a decade.

[Hugh Conway]

yeah on the same page.

but what, exactly, is the USADA trying to do? prevent lance from racing in ironmans? or to just taint him in the eyes of public opinion? its not like anyone in their right mind thinks he was clean all those years.

i don't get it. they have a ton of testimony and no evidence....

all LA's legal team needs to do is dig up some random disagreement with each person testifying, which can't be hard b/c LA is a total prick, and say they have an axe to grind and point to the totally clean drug test results conducted day-in day-out for over a decade.

Maybe read about what the USADA are supposed to do and how they do it? This isn't a jury trial (much as some want to make it one). USADA is supposed to stop doping. Indicting current team directors and doctors (and a big doped star) would certainly seem part of that.

[marshalolson]

and who cares about all that action anyways, the NFL does not test for HGH.

who in their right minds think anyone in that league isn't on it? i mean look at those dudes. they make massive pumped up barry bonds and super-lance look like meth heads.

[marshalolson]

Maybe read about what the USADA are supposed to do and how they do it? This isn't a jury trial (much as some want to make it one). USADA is supposed to stop doping. Indicting current team directors and doctors (and a big doped star) would certainly seem part of that.

they are supposed to punish athletes caught doping, yes. does anyone, including the USADA really think they will STOP it?

[PNWbrit]

and who cares about all that action anyways, the NFL does not test for HGH.

who in their right minds think anyone in that league isn't on it? i mean look at those dudes. they make massive pumped up barry bonds and super-lance look like meth heads.

Isn't the issue there that that NFL hasn't outlawed it so the USADA have no jurisdiction to investigate?

[Hugh Conway]

they are supposed to punish athletes caught doping, yes. does anyone, including the USADA really think they will STOP it?

When did everything in life need to be 100% successful to attempt?

[marshalolson]

Isn't the issue there that that NFL hasn't outlawed it so the USADA have no jurisdiction to investigate?

mmmkay, so are you arguing that the NFL should be held as part of the conspiracy that systematically allows and therefore tacitly approves HGH use?

[marshalolson]

When did everything in life need to be 100% successful to attempt?

the case is supported 100% by testimony that is quite old. testimony that is this old has been systematically proven to be unreliable for numerous reasons.

i just think it will be equally damaging to the USADA if they loose (they can't bust someone who so obviously doped), as if they win (they got a guy using super questionable methods that are not "legal", and thereby make a martyr out of him).

so yeah "have fun with that".

[flatlander#2]

Maybe Lance's people pushed for it knowing they can't prove it? See, I am and always was clean?

[Hugh Conway]

the case is supported 100% by testimony that is quite old. testimony that is this old has been systematically proven to be unreliable for numerous reasons.

Are you just making shit up as you go along now? Did you actually read the letter?
http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...arging0613.pdf

[marshalolson]

did i miss the page where they talked about pictures of lance shooting up or his setup at his home for transfusions? or the vials with fingerprints on them?

though, thinking about it closer, i bet they can get him on the conspiracy charges "using fear and intimidation for compliance" + "cover-up", at the very least.

slow day at the office