Lance back in the news.

[Roxtar]

Depends. Winner might be depicted as "vacated."

My guess is that he had better drugs and better means to hide it, so, no, it wasn't a level playing field.

My desire to get to the truth is about a bigger issue. American popular culture has come to an unfortunate place where once someone gets to the top it doesn't matter how he got to the top and, even worse, it is spiteful to question how he got to the top. Weird. IMV, people who rise to the top ought to be under greater scrutiny, not less.

Yeah, maybe creaky fossil hit it. Maybe it's about people being too invested in heroes and/or everything being so phony and contrived that people don't want to know the truth because it threatens the comfort of myth.

Puleeze.
With all the huge $ in cycling, there is no, "Our drugs are better."
They all have the same info, they all use the same shit. He may have been more careful to not get caught but hey, that's to his benefit.
I agree with the those that say, yes, they all doped. We're cleaning it up but the past is the past.
Let it go.

[GeezerSteve]

With all the huge $ in cycling, there is no, "Our drugs are better."

Well, no, the evidence in other cases (some in other sports) compels the finding that Dr. Ferarri (and, FWIW, Balco) had the latest and greatest PEDs and better ways to mask PEDs. PED use had become an arms race in professional cycling.

The big teams had huge money. The little teams were often on shoe string budgets.

Let it go.

Let what go? The truth?

[Mofro261]

and in other late breaking news, Florida recount show Gore beating Bush.

[GeezerSteve]

Actually, that's a great example to support my point. We can only hope that someday the history books will tell the truth that five members of the U. S. Supreme Court pulled a coup and installed their choice of president against the will of the electorate.

Or we can sweep the truth under the rug in the name of "getting over it."

[Roxtar]

Let what go? The truth?

In this case? Yes.
Christ, spend a percentage of the percentage of the percentage of this money on catching rapists and you might actually be doing something worthwhile.
This is just gotten comically stupid.
It's a fucking race, for God's sake. No one's dying here. Hell, 99.9999% of the world doesn't give a shit.

[marshalolson]

at the very least alexandre vinikourov, joseba beloki ivan basso, jan ullrich, etc have all been implicated more severely than lance, and all have been suspended at some time or another for doping. yet, their names are still listed as 2nd and 3rd respectively all those years.

just saying... you can't really pull a guy's title and still recognize 2nd, 3rd, etc if those cats are just as guilty & in the wrong.

either the tour didn't exist for ~10 years (or realistically it didn't ever exist) or it did. either you tested positive (floyd) or you didn't. you can't go back and change the rules a decade later. lance didn't get caught. that does not mean its right, but you can't change the rules 10 years later and then hold someone accountable for rules that did not exist at the time.

[GeezerSteve]

The discussion about who will appear in the record books is irrelevant or at least getting way ahead of the recent news. USADA has amassed evidence to support a claim of systemic doping and cover ups by the USPS team. The USADA's job is to proceed with a complaint if the evidence warrants it. USADA is just doing its job. USADA does not have the power to re-write the record books.

Christ, spend a percentage of the percentage of the percentage of this money on catching rapists and you might actually be doing something worthwhile.

But the USADA is a non-profit non-governmental entity that has no jurisdiction over rapists. What an odd argument: There are uncaught rapists out there, therefore nothing should be done about cheating in professional sports. Weird.

[Dantheman]

No one's dying here.

Well, there are a lot of pro cyclists who died early deaths as a likely result of doping. There's a wiki page with a long list someone posted here once.

(or realistically it didn't ever exist)

QFT. It's hardly a secret that TDF riders have been "doping" since the race's inception. The sport is probably cleaner now than it's ever been.

[stradissimo]

Legalize doping to create a level playing field.

That's not the way it works. Some people respond better to doping than others. If you allow doping, you're just creating a contest to see who won the genetic lottery for positive reactions to doping.

Doping doesn't level the playing field, it just changes who has the genetic advantage.

[PNWbrit]

If you allow doping, you're just creating a contest to see who won the

Tommy Simpson prize for doping yourself to death and having to have your fingers prised off the handlebars of your bike.

[XtrPickels]

Any thoughts on UCI/WADA allowing Grand Tour riders to get some blood transfused if their hematocrit level (or maybe even white cell count) falls below a certain level? Three weeks of 100 mile days are freakin tough on people's bodies no matter how fit. Might actually stop guys from doping to the gills before the race and then try to carry through?

Also, any links to the sportsscientists writeups you reference? They are kind of tedious to find using search on that site.

In my opinion, I do believe that what the riders are being asked to do almost requires them to seek "outside help". With an easier schedule, both in terms of the races themselves and how often they are racing (often they will race 3 weeks in the giro, take 5 days off and start another week long race), I believe the desire or need to dope would be decreased.

However, the "exploitation" of these athletes is what brings in money to the team /sponsors. They (the team) doesn't care, they just want as much performance as possible.

And yes "doping" has been pervasive throughout sport for a long time. Whether its EPO or amphetamines, "outside help" has been sought by many many people.

How much does Doping Help:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007...h-look-at.html

The effect of EPO
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007...mance-who.html

Climbing at 6watts/kilo- Doping?
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2010...kg-anyone.html
http://www.sportsscientists.com/sear...f+climbing+epo

[GeezerSteve]

From America's Finest News Source: Lance Armstrong Wants To Tell Nation Something But Nation Has To Promise Not To Get Mad

[ticketchecker]

In this case? Yes.
Christ, spend a percentage of the percentage of the percentage of this money on catching rapists and you might actually be doing something worthwhile.

The United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) mission statement is clear: “USADA is dedicated to preserving the integrity of competition, inspiring true sport, and protecting the rights of U.S. athletes.”

Yes, USADA is funded with your tax dollars, “74% from the federal government and 26% from the USOC” in 2009. But, the argument that USADA is somehow mismanaging or wasting those funds by investigating Lance Armstrong is logically incoherent. Their stated purpose is to preserve the integrity of competition. That is exactly what they are doing.

As much as I enjoyed watching Lance's domination of the TDF, I grew equally turned off by being lied to repeatedly by him.

[Empty Beer]

That's not the way it works. Some people respond better to doping than others. If you allow doping, you're just creating a contest to see who won the genetic lottery for positive reactions to doping.

Doping doesn't level the playing field, it just changes who has the genetic advantage.

But doesn't the competition between non-dopers have SOMETHING to do with the same genetic lottery? I don't dope and I don't "train" as hard as my colleagues, but I tend to beat a lot of them.... thanks to my genetics (if you ask me). I race mtb, not Tours of France.

[Crampedon]

But doesn't the competition between non-dopers have SOMETHING to do with the same genetic lottery? I don't dope and I don't "train" as hard as my colleagues, but I tend to beat a lot of them.... thanks to my genetics (if you ask me). I race mtb, not Tours of France.

There were american cat 1 pros who dropped Lance badly in the U.S. a few weeks before his win first of the Duaphine.


Genetics? He "found his form" ?

Bullshit.

Changing the past is one thing, but we are all tired of being lied to.

[Roxtar]

The United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) mission statement is clear: “USADA is dedicated to preserving the integrity of competition, inspiring true sport, and protecting the rights of U.S. athletes.”

Yes, USADA is funded with your tax dollars, “74% from the federal government and 26% from the USOC” in 2009. But, the argument that USADA is somehow mismanaging or wasting those funds by investigating Lance Armstrong is logically incoherent. Their stated purpose is to preserve the integrity of competition. That is exactly what they are doing.

As much as I enjoyed watching Lance's domination of the TDF, I grew equally turned off by being lied to repeatedly by him.

Then spend your time fixing the current situation.
You don't "preserve" something by going back 10 years and pointing fingers.
The "integrity of THAT competition" is over and done.

Move the fuck on.

[Roxtar]

it wasn't a level playing field.

Did all his rivals, Ullrich, Basso, Belocki, Pantani, Hamilton, Vinikouruv, Landis, Contador..., have the same access to the same drugs AND ALREADY BEEN PROVEN to have used them?

That's pretty much the definition of a level playing field.

Thing is, I'm not a fan of LA. I think he's another arrogant asshole athlete with a god complex.
I just don't like witchhunts, which is exactly what this is. He got away with it. Deal with it.
Like I said before, no one got raped or killed. It was a bike race. Not really THAT important.
But he beat the governing bodies and they don't like it so they keep coming at him. It's gotten old.

[that dude who did that thing]

I've read every one fo those negative articles about Armstrong, because peopole here seem to have some kind of need to keep posting those links, and not one of them amounts to carp. The article about his PR machine just says he's got an aggressive PR operation. The one about Livestrong acgtually says that Livestrong focuses its efforts on helping patients and survivors rather than research. The claim that he uses the foundation to turn away criticism of his alleged doping is simply not supported by any examples of HIM doing so, it's other folks doing so. Some people just hate success, I guess, makes them feeel unsuccessful.

But the same crap comes up every time he is in the news. And he is always in the news because people feel som eneed to tear him down, despite the fact he is now a non-factor in cycling.

I agree we should be focused on tomorrow's race, not last year's.

[flatlander#2]

It doesn't matter how, he won. And he still wins. He still gets up every day and crushes. He still toes up to the line at various types races and crushes. How many others do that? Does him clipping in at a tri hurt the pristine image of road cycling? No, it's stupid and they need to get on.

If he passed every single drug test he took while others did not you think there isn't someone along the line with some more bills in their pocket? Of course he wasn't clean for crying out loud, that's unpossible. Depends on who it is and what they can do to change the outcome of this present clusterfuck. And really whoever is pissing away the resources to chase this windmill needs to move on and focus on here, now and future.

[Cyber Cop]

I'm just tired of hearing about Lance and that whole generation of american cyclists. Hopefully we get a new hero soon.

[Cyber Cop]

At least Lance didn't out everyone on 60 minutes and start crying like a pobrecito.

[Cyber Cop]

If I ever see Landis or Hamilton in a race I'm going to through a shoe in their general direction. Hopefully hit the spokes.

[Hugh Conway]

Yeah, maybe creaky fossil hit it. Maybe it's about people being too invested in heroes and/or everything being so phony and contrived that people don't want to know the truth because it threatens the comfort of myth.

Definitely something along those lines. Interesting statement on culture in America. We want things to be clean and honest... but we don't want to prosecute much less punish those who've lied and cheated to get to the top. No different than the financial crisis really. Viva 3rd world America! Respect the elite for they are the elite!

[PNWbrit]

Busting the worlds most famous and successful (both in terms of his results, decades of non-detection and subsequent dubious business practices) doper would seem me to have great value as a deterrent.

Maybe as part of Lance's rehabilitation into the public's affections he will spend some of his yellow bracelet personal income on a program to protect/prevent young athletes from following in his footsteps?

[marshalolson]

The discussion about who will appear in the record books is irrelevant or at least getting way ahead of the recent news. USADA has amassed evidence to support a claim of systemic doping and cover ups by the USPS team. The USADA's job is to proceed with a complaint if the evidence warrants it. USADA is just doing its job. USADA does not have the power to re-write the record books.

that is fine and dandy and all, but what is the statute of limitations on this stuff?

recollections change over time
evidence gets tainted,
bitnerness and grudges develop etc.

other than murder in a few states, almost every serious violent crime is 7-15 years.
class a felonies are 5-7 years or less (i.e. life in prison)
class b felonies are about 1 year give or take (i.e. 25 years in jail)

we are now entering the seventh? year since the LAST victory. are we arguing that the crimes lance likely committed are this serious and should have such extended statutes of limitations?