29er hardtail geometry - what's the difference?

[flyman683]

Buying one of these in the low/mid range as my ACL rehab "tool".

Basically, I'm overwhelmed with choices and all the geometry talk of friends/shops (chainstay, angles, etc).

I've been on a kona kahuna that I really felt dialed in on. a felt nine sport was decent & giant talon 1 was okay but too upright from stem rise so probably very close to felt. Really did not like a rockhopper feel, although it also shifted like crap from what seemed like bad tune.

Even kona's cheaper splice felt good although it doesn't have components I'm looking for.

Before I drop the extra $200 on the kona vs the felt/giant, how much of this feel is likely stem/bars/shims/seat vs actual geometry?

I know kona's got about quarter inch shorter chainstay lengths, steeper seat tube with least head tube, but I'm not sure if it's this I'm feeling or just adjustable parts that happen to fit me... Help?

[Dickeymotto]

No idea since I've really only ridden my Sette Razzo (which is quite steep and long). It did noticeably handle better and ride more comfortably when I threw all the headset spacers under the stem and raised it by about an inch and a half. Though I got the bike to provide contrast to my Prophet, which is really slack and short, so I want it to ride long and steep.

Basically I have nothing to contribute other than to say stem/bar choice and position make a big difference.

[flyman683]

Dickey thanks for the effort.

This is worse than deciding what ski to get. Too many parts...

[Chugachjed]

My Soul Cycles Dillinger will be arriving in Anchortown Thursday. How tall are you? Mine's a 20" hit me up if you want to check it out. $400 frame, I got a paint blem so cheaper.

[Yeah!]

bar/stem setup makes as big a difference on a 29er as on a 26er, so you could definitely change the way the bikes feel. I'm of the opinion that the Kona has the best geometry of the bunch - a little slacker, lower, and shortest chainstays. Stays longer than 17.3 start to make the bike feel like an 18wheeler, and head angles steeper than 71* get twitchy. Having ridden a good number of 29ers, I'm of the opinion that many people don't like them because many manufacturers make big wheeled bikes with really shitty geometry.

Since you already like the Kona, that's probably the one to get. Better to spend the extra $200 for something that you already know you like than the try and save $200 and not be sure you like the bike.

[toast2266]

get whatever feels good to you. Personally, for a 29er, I'm with Yeah! - I like something with short chainstays, a slacker headtube, and a relatively low bottom bracket. Those traits help the bike corner a bit better without making it twitchy.

[supermodel159]

I've got a El Mar as my main mtn bike and a Giant Talon 2 as my commute bike. The Giant is fairly upright, which is fine for commuting and crusing around town. If you'll be taking it easy I'd get the giant, otherwise I'd suggest going with the Kona.

[tellybele]

get whatever feels good to you. Personally, for a 29er, I'm with Yeah! - I like something with short chainstays, a slacker headtube, and a relatively low bottom bracket. Those traits help the bike corner a bit better without making it twitchy.

I agree with those traits and will add a few more for a 9er with SS(short/slack) geo.

-Climbing the Tech and popping low-level trials moves is hella easier with the short stays; hella.
-If you like hittin' the booters and making aerial side-to-side transfers, this type of play is enhanced with having the rear wheel in the 16.5-16.75" CS length zone. You lose the sluggy rear end feeling with SS geo. I imagine it'll be standard for MTB geo, more like a baja racer and less like a longbed crew cab.
-SS geo is where it is at if you like grinding out the tech in the ups and popping the booters on the DH.
Canfield nailed it!

Since you like Kona, have you tried the Honzo?!

[toast2266]

Since you like Kona, have you tried the Honzo?!

The Honzo is a rad looking bike.

[NuMexJoe]

I've owned, in order, a Retrotec (w/ Curtis' standard 71/73 geometry), a Vassago Jabberwocky ("Wet Cat" geometry designed to be a bit slack and long, and is up for sale), and my current Canfield Nimble9. Ran all three as SS, and the former 2 geared as well. The Canfield is *so* much fun compared to the other 2, although for geared purposes, the Jabber was probably the best. Hope that helps a bit.

[Yeah!]

I agree with those traits and will add a few more for a 9er with SS(short/slack) geo.

-Climbing the Tech and popping low-level trials moves is hella easier with the short stays; hella.
-If you like hittin' the booters and making aerial side-to-side transfers, this type of play is enhanced with having the rear wheel in the 16.5-16.75" CS length zone. You lose the sluggy rear end feeling with SS geo. I imagine it'll be standard for MTB geo, more like a baja racer and less like a longbed crew cab.
-SS geo is where it is at if you like grinding out the tech in the ups and popping the booters on the DH.
Canfield nailed it!

Since you like Kona, have you tried the Honzo?!

I agree with most of that except that short rear ends make for good techy climbing. I've been riding a Banshee Paradox for the past couple years (which had the shorted production chainstays when it came out, 16.9"). I've also owned/ridden extensively a Karate Monkey, Rig, Stumpy Evo, and King Kahuna. The Rig was way too long and unwieldy, but the Kahuna and Evo have a slightly longer back end than the Paradox and go through really rocky, techy stuff better due to the longer (but not too long) wheelbase. The Paradox is nicer for swinging around, jumping, and doing trialsy moves, but the slightly longer bikes have it beat for being able to just push through stuff. The Rig and Kahuna were also better on really steep stuff because the longer back end allowed you to stay more centered.

Would love to try a Honzo. Sounds like a wicked fun bike.

[tellybele]

I've owned, in order, a Retrotec (w/ Curtis' standard 71/73 geometry), a Vassago Jabberwocky ("Wet Cat" geometry designed to be a bit slack and long, and is up for sale), and my current Canfield Nimble9. Ran all three as SS, and the former 2 geared as well. The Canfield is *so* much fun compared to the other 2, although for geared purposes, the Jabber was probably the best. Hope that helps a bit.

YoJoe

Why do you think the VasJab is better with gears? I have to admit, I rode one once for little bit and couldn't believe how anti-mtb it felt. It was exactly like a buddies MattShyster I rode once. I couldn't imagine anything could help a VasJab..

I too have a N9 and frikkin love the fun that it is!

[tellybele]

I agree with most of that except that short rear ends make for good techy climbing. I've been riding a Banshee Paradox for the past couple years (which had the shorted production chainstays when it came out, 16.9"). I've also owned/ridden extensively a Karate Monkey, Rig, Stumpy Evo, and King Kahuna. The Rig was way too long and unwieldy, but the Kahuna and Evo have a slightly longer back end than the Paradox and go through really rocky, techy stuff better due to the longer (but not too long) wheelbase. The Paradox is nicer for swinging around, jumping, and doing trialsy moves, but the slightly longer bikes have it beat for being able to just push through stuff. The Rig and Kahuna were also better on really steep stuff because the longer back end allowed you to stay more centered.

Would love to try a Honzo. Sounds like a wicked fun bike.

I hear you, to each their own! Not my experience. Style, body size, etc. play into this. I have to say if your tech requires pedal hopping, jiving, or lasts longer than 30' of uphill tech, then I have to disagree with your last sentence, unless you are talking about pavement. BTW, centered is necessarily center...if'n you know what I mean!!

[NuMexJoe]

Those long chainstays on the Jabber require a lot more effort to keep the rear wheel planted when climbing in SS-mode vs. the Canfield, but they make for a smoother ride, all other things being equal, and the rear is gonna easily stay planted when you're climbing seated w/ gears. I think the Jabber would be more comfortable geometry for, say, White Rim-in-a-day, which I did on the Retrotec. FWIW, I ran my Jabber w/ a Reba set at 90mm. At 80, it wasn't enough for my aging carcass on our rocky trails here, but the handling was not nearly as sharp w/ it set at 100.

[tellybele]

Those long chainstays on the Jabber require a lot more effort to keep the rear wheel planted when climbing in SS-mode vs. the Canfield, but they make for a smoother ride, all other things being equal, and the rear is gonna easily stay planted when you're climbing seated w/ gears. I think the Jabber would be more comfortable geometry for, say, White Rim-in-a-day, which I did on the Retrotec. FWIW, I ran my Jabber w/ a Reba set at 90mm. At 80, it wasn't enough for my aging carcass on our rocky trails here, but the handling was not nearly as sharp w/ it set at 100.

Comprendo on the white rim gig...basically a roda ride. What length is your fork on the N9? I run a Ti post on my N9 and it hella smooths the ride out.

[NuMexJoe]

Took the same Reba (20mmTA) and set it at 120mm. And yeah, I found an old Moots layback post that I run. Less length exposed than when I had it on the Jabber, but it still seems to take the edge off nicely. Sheesh, is your N9 black, too? For now, I consider it my perfect SS setup (including my no-apologies 32x22 gearing).

Comprendo on the white rim gig...basically a roda ride. What length is your fork on the N9? I run a Ti post on my N9 and it hella smooths the ride out.

[DirkaDirkaJack]

The Honzo is a rad looking bike.

for the record that bike has 415 stays, which are shorter than most 26ers. (that is why it can only run one front ring).

[tellybele]

Took the same Reba (20mmTA) and set it at 120mm. And yeah, I found an old Moots layback post that I run. Less length exposed than when I had it on the Jabber, but it still seems to take the edge off nicely. Sheesh, is your N9 black, too? For now, I consider it my perfect SS setup (including my no-apologies 32x22 gearing).

Yup, no apologies here either..same gear. Mine is blue w/RLT Ti @ 120mm. It is perfect

[Shogun]

I just picked up a Haro Mary SS after doing some research online and hearing good things about the geometry among other things for an entry level SS 29er... especially with the 16" frame and riders with my height/inseam. I only got the bike two days ago and about to take it on my second ride this evening, so I can't comment too much on it besides that my first impression was great.

During my research they compared the Mary to the Kona Unit and both bikes are generally liked as an entry level 29er. Also, I picked mine up primarily as an ACL rehab tool and I can tell you the burn is awesome.

[flyman683]

Being new to anything other than ill-fitting, used, $50 yard sale bikes & a rented hardtail K2 thru Resurrection Pass last year, this thread evolution made me say "SLOW DOWN" a la the Billy Madison learning Spanish scene.

WTF are you people talking about with your RLT TI with SS, N9, CroMo hyperalloy endo bar, XC, DH, trialsy, North Shore, full face, layback post, gibberish?

Other than that, seriously thanks for all the input - once I deciphered that SS meant single speed I felt much better. Ended up going with the Kona Kahuna: between recommendations here & from bike nerds I know, and the need for something soon for rehab purposes. Didn't want to go to Honzo or anything up in price due to budget & I need some versatility for pulling kids in a trailer, family rides, trail-a-bike, etc.

[Chugachjed]

Hit me up, let's go for a ride. Just put my 29r together moments ago.

[tellybele]

Being new to anything other than ill-fitting, used, $50 yard sale bikes & a rented hardtail K2 thru Resurrection Pass last year, this thread evolution made me say "SLOW DOWN" a la the Billy Madison learning Spanish scene.

WTF are you people talking about with your RLT TI with SS, N9, CroMo hyperalloy endo bar, XC, DH, trialsy, North Shore, full face, layback post, gibberish?

Other than that, seriously thanks for all the input - once I deciphered that SS meant single speed I felt much better. Ended up going with the Kona Kahuna: between recommendations here & from bike nerds I know, and the need for something soon for rehab purposes. Didn't want to go to Honzo or anything up in price due to budget & I need some versatility for pulling kids in a trailer, family rides, trail-a-bike, etc.

Really, it is just gibberish...you know how important our 'play'-tech is here in the first world!!

Dig!! and Get Well!