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  1. #1
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    Moyers on the religious right and the environment (nsr/long)

    There Is No Tomorrow
    By Bill Moyers
    The Star Tribune

    Sunday 30 January 2005

    One of the biggest changes in politics in my
    lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal.
    It has come in from the fringe, to sit in the seat of
    power in the Oval Office and in Congress. For the
    first time in our history, ideology and theology hold
    a monopoly of power in Washington.

    Theology asserts propositions that cannot be proven
    true; ideologues hold stoutly to a worldview despite
    being contradicted by what is generally accepted as
    reality. When ideology and theology couple, their
    offspring are not always bad but they are always
    blind. And there is the danger: voters and politicians
    alike, oblivious to the facts.

    Remember James Watt, President Ronald Reagan's first
    secretary of the interior? My favorite online
    environmental journal, the ever-engaging Grist,
    reminded us recently of how James Watt told the U.S.
    Congress that protecting natural resources was
    unimportant in light of the imminent return of Jesus
    Christ. In public testimony he said, "after the last
    tree is felled, Christ will come back."

    Beltway elites snickered. The press corps didn't
    know what he was talking about. But James Watt was
    serious. So were his compatriots out across the
    country. They are the people who believe the Bible is
    literally true - one-third of the American electorate,
    if a recent Gallup poll is accurate. In this past
    election several million good and decent citizens went
    to the polls believing in the rapture index.

    That's right - the rapture index. Google it and you
    will find that the best-selling books in America today
    are the 12 volumes of the "Left Behind" series written
    by the Christian fundamentalist and religious-right
    warrior Timothy LaHaye. These true believers subscribe
    to a fantastical theology concocted in the 19th
    century by a couple of immigrant preachers who took
    disparate passages from the Bible and wove them into a
    narrative that has captivated the imagination of
    millions of Americans.

    Its outline is rather simple, if bizarre (the
    British writer George Monbiot recently did a brilliant
    dissection of it and I am indebted to him for adding
    to my own understanding): Once Israel has occupied the
    rest of its "biblical lands," legions of the
    antichrist will attack it, triggering a final showdown
    in the valley of Armageddon.

    As the Jews who have not been converted are burned,
    the messiah will return for the rapture. True
    believers will be lifted out of their clothes and
    transported to Heaven, where, seated next to the right
    hand of God, they will watch their political and
    religious opponents suffer plagues of boils, sores,
    locusts and frogs during the several years of
    tribulation that follow.

    I'm not making this up. Like Monbiot, I've read the
    literature. I've reported on these people, following
    some of them from Texas to the West Bank. They are
    sincere, serious and polite as they tell you they feel
    called to help bring the rapture on as fulfillment of
    biblical prophecy. That's why they have declared
    solidarity with Israel and the Jewish settlements and
    backed up their support with money and volunteers.
    It's why the invasion of Iraq for them was a warm-up
    act, predicted in the Book of Revelations where four
    angels "which are bound in the great river Euphrates
    will be released to slay the third part of man." A war
    with Islam in the Middle East is not something to be
    feared but welcomed - an essential conflagration on
    the road to redemption. The last time I Googled it,
    the rapture index stood at 144 - just one point below
    the critical threshold when the whole thing will blow,
    the son of God will return, the righteous will enter
    Heaven and sinners will be condemned to eternal
    hellfire.

    So what does this mean for public policy and the
    environment? Go to Grist to read a remarkable work of
    reporting by the journalist Glenn Scherer - "The Road
    to Environmental Apocalypse." Read it and you will see
    how millions of Christian fundamentalists may believe
    that environmental destruction is not only to be
    disregarded but actually welcomed - even hastened - as
    a sign of the coming apocalypse.

    As Grist makes clear, we're not talking about a
    handful of fringe lawmakers who hold or are beholden
    to these beliefs. Nearly half the U.S. Congress before
    the recent election - 231 legislators in total and
    more since the election - are backed by the religious
    right.

    Forty-five senators and 186 members of the 108th
    Congress earned 80 to 100 percent approval ratings
    from the three most influential Christian right
    advocacy groups. They include Senate Majority Leader
    Bill Frist, Assistant Majority Leader Mitch McConnell,
    Conference Chair Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, Policy
    Chair Jon Kyl of Arizona, House Speaker Dennis Hastert
    and Majority Whip Roy Blunt. The only Democrat to
    score 100 percent with the Christian coalition was
    Sen. Zell Miller of Georgia, who recently quoted from
    the biblical book of Amos on the Senate floor: "The
    days will come, sayeth the Lord God, that I will send
    a famine in the land." He seemed to be relishing the
    thought.

    And why not? There's a constituency for it. A 2002
    Time-CNN poll found that 59 percent of Americans
    believe that the prophecies found in the book of
    Revelations are going to come true. Nearly one-quarter
    think the Bible predicted the 9/11 attacks. Drive
    across the country with your radio tuned to the more
    than 1,600 Christian radio stations, or in the motel
    turn on some of the 250 Christian TV stations, and you
    can hear some of this end-time gospel. And you will
    come to understand why people under the spell of such
    potent prophecies cannot be expected, as Grist puts
    it, "to worry about the environment. Why care about
    the earth, when the droughts, floods, famine and
    pestilence brought by ecological collapse are signs of
    the apocalypse foretold in the Bible? Why care about
    global climate change when you and yours will be
    rescued in the rapture? And why care about converting
    from oil to solar when the same God who performed the
    miracle of the loaves and fishes can whip up a few
    billion barrels of light crude with a word?"

    Because these people believe that until Christ does
    return, the Lord will provide. One of their texts is a
    high school history book, "America's Providential
    History." You'll find there these words: "The secular
    or socialist has a limited-resource mentality and
    views the world as a pie ... that needs to be cut up
    so everyone can get a piece." However, "[t]he
    Christian knows that the potential in God is unlimited
    and that there is no shortage of resources in God's
    earth ... while many secularists view the world as
    overpopulated, Christians know that God has made the
    earth sufficiently large with plenty of resources to
    accommodate all of the people."

    No wonder Karl Rove goes around the White House
    whistling that militant hymn, "Onward Christian
    Soldiers." He turned out millions of the foot soldiers
    on Nov. 2, including many who have made the apocalypse
    a powerful driving force in modern American politics.

    It is hard for the journalist to report a story like
    this with any credibility. So let me put it on a
    personal level. I myself don't know how to be in this
    world without expecting a confident future and getting
    up every morning to do what I can to bring it about.
    So I have always been an optimist. Now, however, I
    think of my friend on Wall Street whom I once
    asked: "What do you think of the market?"I'm
    optimistic," he answered. "Then why do you look so
    worried?" And he answered: "Because I am not sure my
    optimism is justified."

    I'm not, either. Once upon a time I agreed with Eric
    Chivian and the Center for Health and the Global
    Environment that people will protect the natural
    environment when they realize its importance to their
    health and to the health and lives of their children.
    Now I am not so sure. It's not that I don't want to
    believe that - it's just that I read the news and
    connect the dots.

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    Moyers continued

    I read that the administrator of the U.S.
    Environmental Protection Agency has declared the
    election a mandate for President Bush on the
    environment. This for an administration:

    That wants to rewrite the Clean Air Act, the Clean
    Water Act and the Endangered Species Act protecting
    rare plant and animal species and their habitats, as
    well as the National Environmental Policy Act, which
    requires the government to judge beforehand whether
    actions might damage natural resources.
    That wants to relax pollution limits for ozone;
    eliminate vehicle tailpipe inspections, and ease
    pollution standards for cars, sport-utility vehicles
    and diesel-powered big trucks and heavy equipment.
    That wants a new international audit law to allow
    corporations to keep certain information about
    environmental problems secret from the public.
    That wants to drop all its new-source review suits
    against polluting, coal-fired power plants and weaken
    consent decrees reached earlier with coal companies.
    That wants to open the Arctic [National] Wildlife
    Refuge to drilling and increase drilling in Padre
    Island National Seashore, the longest stretch of
    undeveloped barrier island in the world and the last
    great coastal wild land in America.

    I read the news just this week and learned how the
    Environmental Protection Agency had planned to spend
    $9 million - $2 million of it from the
    administration's friends at the American Chemistry
    Council - to pay poor families to continue to use
    pesticides in their homes. These pesticides have been
    linked to neurological damage in children, but instead
    of ordering an end to their use, the government and
    the industry were going to offer the families $970
    each, as well as a camcorder and children's clothing,
    to serve as guinea pigs for the study.

    I read all this in the news.

    I read the news just last night and learned that the
    administration's friends at the International Policy
    Network, which is supported by Exxon Mobil and others
    of like mind, have issued a new report that climate
    change is "a myth, sea levels are not rising" [and]
    scientists who believe catastrophe is possible are "an
    embarrassment."

    I not only read the news but the fine print of the
    recent appropriations bill passed by Congress, with
    the obscure (and obscene) riders attached to
    it: a clause removing all endangered species
    protections from pesticides; language prohibiting
    judicial review for a forest in Oregon; a waiver of
    environmental review for grazing permits on public
    lands; a rider pressed by developers to weaken
    protection for crucial habitats in California.

    I read all this and look up at the pictures on my
    desk, next to the computer - pictures of my
    grandchildren. I see the future looking back at me
    from those photographs and I say, "Father, forgive us,
    for we know not what we do." And then I am stopped
    short by the thought: "That's not right. We do know
    what we are doing. We are stealing their future.
    Betraying their trust. Despoiling their world."

    And I ask myself: Why? Is it because we don't care?
    Because we are greedy? Because we have lost our
    capacity for outrage, our ability to sustain
    indignation at injustice?

    What has happened to our moral imagination?

    On the heath Lear asks Gloucester: "How do you see
    the world?" And Gloucester, who is blind, answers: "I
    see it feelingly.'"

    I see it feelingly.

    The news is not good these days. I can tell you,
    though, that as a journalist I know the news is never
    the end of the story. The news can be the truth that
    sets us free - not only to feel but to fight for the
    future we want. And the will to fight is the antidote
    to despair, the cure for cynicism, and the answer to
    those faces looking back at me from those photographs
    on my desk. What we need is what the ancient
    Israelites called hochma - the science of the heart
    ... the capacity to see, to feel and then to act as if
    the future depended on you.

    Believe me, it does.

    -------

    Bill Moyers was host until recently of the weekly
    public affairs series "NOW with Bill Moyers" on PBS.
    This article is adapted from AlterNet, where it first
    appeared. The text is taken from Moyers' remarks upon
    receiving the Global Environmental Citizen Award from
    the Center for Health and the Global Environment at
    Harvard Medical School.

  3. #3
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    Scary shit, man. Religious brainwashing has fucked up too many people.
    "There is a hell of a huge difference between skiing as a sport- or even as a lifestyle- and skiing as an industry"
    Hunter S. Thompson, 1970 (RIP)

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    The fundies laugh at our view of the world, described as "the reality based world" by a bush cabinet aide in ron suskind's recent article in the NYT. Reality doesn't really matter to them. Why would it when Jesus will take care of everything?

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    Moyer's absolutely RULES!

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    AKA is offline These meaasge boards suck
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    Go

    Brilliant.


    Moyer's not getting taken to Heaven when Jesus comes back next week, I can tell you that right now.
    ________
    volcano vaporizer
    Last edited by AKA; 01-19-2011 at 07:11 AM.

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    Most people think
    great God will come from the sky
    take away everything
    and make everbody feel high
    But if you know what life is worth
    you will look for yours on earth





    The Rapture index is up to 154, round up the chillun's and find a good seat folks!

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    I'd put off reading this article for awhile because it was so long. Scary, scary shit. The patients are truly running the asylum.

    I'll be forwarding this one to my freinds and family.
    "These are crazy times Mr Hatter, crazy times. Crazy like Buddha! Muwahaha!"

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    A different perspective...

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6919358/

    Evangelicals go for the green
    Christian right turns, sometimes warily, to environmentalism

    SEATTLE - Thanks to the Rev. Leroy Hedman, the parishioners at Georgetown Gospel Chapel take their baptismal waters cold. The preacher has unplugged the electricity-guzzling heater in the immersion baptism tank behind his pulpit. He has also installed energy-saving fluorescent light bulbs throughout the church and has placed water barrels beneath its gutter pipes using runoff to irrigate the congregation's all-organic gardens.

    Such "creation care" should be at the heart of evangelical life, Hedman says, along with condemning abortion, protecting family and loving Jesus. He uses the term "creation care" because, he says, it does not annoy conservative Christians for whom the word "environmentalism" connotes liberals, secularists and Democrats.

    Going for the green
    "It's amazing to me that evangelicals haven't gone quicker for the green," Hedman said. "But as creation care spreads, evangelicals will demand different behavior from politicians. The Republicans should not take us for granted."

    There is growing evidence in polling and in public statements of church leaders that evangelicals are beginning to go for the green. Despite wariness toward mainstream environmental groups, a growing number of evangelicals view stewardship of the environment as a responsibility mandated by God in the Bible.

    "The environment is a values issue," said the Rev. Ted Haggard, president of the 30 million-member National Association of Evangelicals. "There are significant and compelling theological reasons why it should be a banner issue for the Christian right."

    In October, the association's leaders adopted an "Evangelical Call to Civic Responsibility" that, for the first time, emphasized every Christian's duty to care for the planet and the role of government in safeguarding a sustainable environment.

    "We affirm that God-given dominion is a sacred responsibility to steward the earth and not a license to abuse the creation of which we are a part," said the statement, which has been distributed to 50,000 member churches. "Because clean air, pure water, and adequate resources are crucial to public health and civic order, government has an obligation to protect its citizens from the effects of environmental degradation."

    Growing political issue
    Signatories included highly visible, opinion-swaying evangelical leaders such as Haggard, James Dobson of Focus on the Family and Chuck Colson of Prison Fellowship Ministries. Some of the signatories are to meet in March in Washington to develop a position on global warming, which could place them at odds with the policies of the Bush administration, according to Richard Cizik, the association's vice president for governmental affairs.

    Also last fall, Christianity Today, an influential evangelical magazine, weighed in for the first time on global warming. It said that "Christians should make it clear to governments and businesses that we are willing to adapt our lifestyles and support steps towards changes that protect our environment."

    The magazine came out in favor of a global warming bill sponsored by Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Joseph I. Lieberman (D-Conn.) that the Bush administration opposed and the Republican-controlled Senate defeated.

    Polling has found a strengthening consensus among evangelicals for strict environmental rules, even if they cost jobs and higher prices, said John C. Green, director of the Ray C. Bliss Institute of Applied Politics at the University of Akron. In 2000, about 45 percent of evangelicals supported strict environmental regulations, according to Green's polling. That jumped to 52 percent last year.

    "It has changed slowly, but it has changed," Green said. "There is now a lot of ferment out there."

    Such ferment matters because evangelicals are politically active. Nearly four out of five white evangelical Christians voted last year for President Bush, constituting more than a third of all votes cast for him, according to the Pew Research Center. The analysis found that the political clout of evangelicals has increased as their cohesiveness in backing the Republican Party has grown. Republicans outnumber Democrats within the group by more than 2 to 1.

    Uneasy alliance
    There is little to suggest in recent elections that environmental concerns influenced the evangelical vote indeed, many members of Congress who receive 100 percent approval ratings from Christian advocacy groups get failing grades from environmental groups. But the latest statements and polls have caught the eye of established environmental organizations.

    Several are attempting to make alliances with the Christian right on specific issues, such as global warming and the presence of mercury and other dangerous toxins in the blood of newborn children.

    After the election last fall, leaders of the country's major environmental groups spent an entire day at a meeting in Washington trying to figure out how to talk to evangelicals, according to Larry Schweiger, president of the National Wildlife Federation. For decades, he said, environmentalists have failed to make that connection.

    "There is a lot of suspicion," said Schweiger, who describes himself as a conservationist and a person of faith. "There are a lot of questions about what are our real intentions."

    Green said the evangelicals' deep suspicion about environmentalists has theological roots.

    "While evangelicals are open to being good stewards of God's creation, they believe people should only worship God, not creation," Green said. "This may sound like splitting hairs. But evangelicals don't see it that way. Their stereotype of environmentalists would be Druids who worship trees."

    Another reason that evangelicals are suspicious of environmental groups is cultural and has its origins in how conservative Christians view themselves in American society, according to the Rev. Jim Ball, executive director of the Evangelical Environmental Network. The group made its name with the "What Would Jesus Drive?" campaign against gas-guzzling cars but recently shifted its focus to reducing global warming.

    "Evangelicals feel besieged by the culture at large," Ball said. "They don't know many environmentalists, but they have the idea they are pretty weird with strange liberal, pantheist views."

  10. #10
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    Continued...


    Landmines abound
    Ball said that the way to bring large numbers of evangelicals on board as political players in environmental issues is to make persuasive arguments that, for instance, tie problems of global warming and mercury pollution to family health and the health of unborn children. He adds that evangelicals themselves not such groups as the Sierra Club or Friends of the Earth, with their liberal Democratic baggage are the only ones who can do the persuading.

    "Environmental groups are always going to be viewed in a wary fashion," Ball said. "They just don't have a good enough feel for the evangelical community. There are landmines from the past, and they will hit them without knowing it."

    Even for green activists within the evangelical movement, there are landmines. One faction in the movement, called dispensationalism, argues that the return of Jesus and the end of the world are near, so it is pointless to fret about environmental degradation.

    James G. Watt, President Ronald Reagan's first interior secretary, famously made this argument before Congress in 1981, saying: "God gave us these things to use. After the last tree is felled, Christ will come back." The enduring appeal of End Time musings among evangelicals is reflected in the phenomenal success of the Left Behind series of apocalyptic potboilers, which have sold more than 60 million copies and are the best-selling novels in the country.

    Haggard, the leader of the National Association of Evangelicals, concedes that this thinking "is a problem that I do have to address regularly in talking to the common man on the street. I tell them to live your life as if Jesus is coming back tomorrow, but plan your life as if he is not coming back in your lifetime. I also tell them that the authors of the Left Behind books have life insurance policies."

    This argument is apparently resonating. Green said the notion that an imminent Judgment Day absolves people of environmental responsibility is now a "fringe" belief.

    Unusual weather phenomena, such as the four hurricanes that battered Florida last year and the melting of the glaciers around the world, have captured the attention of evangelicals and made many more willing to listen to scientific warnings about the dangers of global warming, Haggard said.

    Pro-life, pro-earth messages mingle
    At the same time, activists such as Ball from the Evangelical Environmental Network are trying to show how the most important hot-button issue of the Christian right abortion and the survival of the unborn has a green dimension.

    "Stop Mercury Poisoning of the Unborn," said a banner that Ball carried in last month's antiabortion march in Washington. Holding up the other end of the banner was Cizik, the National Association of Evangelicals' chief lobbyist.

    They handed out carefully footnoted papers that cited federal government studies showing that 1 in 6 babies is born with harmful levels of mercury. The fliers urged Christians not to support the "Clear Skies" act, a Bush administration proposal to regulate coal-burning power plants that are a primary source of mercury pollution.

    Although Cizik carried the banner and handed out literature that implicitly criticized Bush's policy on regulating mercury, he conceded that many evangelicals find it difficult to criticize the president.

    "It is hard to oppose him when he has the moral authority of the office of the president and a record of standing with us on moral issues like abortion," Cizik said.

    In Seattle, Hedman says that evangelicals should worry less about the moral authority of the president and more about their biblical obligation to care for Earth.

    "The Earth is God's body," Hedman said in a recent sermon. "God wants us to look after it."

  11. #11
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    I think Bill Moyers is a great journalist and researcher who always examines issues from all sides, but his article above seems to be written out of fear and frustration. No group, not even the religious right, should be stereotyped as 'this' or 'that.'
    Last edited by Schmear; 02-05-2005 at 11:21 PM.

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    ARE YOU RAPTURE READY?
    and just in case you've got any other ? here are all the Answers
    Scientists now have decisive molecular evidence that humans and chimpanzees once had a common momma and that this lineage had previously split from monkeys.

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    The rise of the religious right in the Republican Party.

    Anyone who considers themselves an independent or a moderate republican better think twice when they pull the lever for a republican candidate running for any public office. When they do, they contirbute to and strengthen the cause of the radical ideologues and theocrats now in control of this country. The funny or sad thing is that it is now the Democrats who are the party of conservatism and moderation.
    "Proud not to be a member of the CCCP: Christian Conservative Coalition Party." SJG#3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornbread
    The rise of the religious right in the Republican Party.

    Anyone who considers themselves an independent or a moderate republican better think twice when they pull the lever for a republican candidate running for any public office. When they do, they contirbute to and strengthen the cause of the radical ideologues and theocrats now in control of this country. The funny or sad thing is that it is now the Democrats who are the party of conservatism and moderation.
    I guess my response to this entire thread is...if we're not with you, 100% for the godless liberal agenda, then we're against you?

    I don't think so, pal. I like my freedoms to decide my life and my beliefs.



    How about we NOT have a thread bashing on christianity. Look at how well the mormon-bashing thread was received.

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    There's a hell of a fucking difference between Christianity per se and radical fundamentalism of any stripe, jackass. Your response sucked Jumper, on every level.

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    blow me.

    did that response suck too?

    so, the belief of the religion in the rapture is coming is not Christianity per se, but is instead radical fundamentalism?

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    anybody else think its funny that the former attorney general lost his congresional election to a dead guy and believes in the rapture
    Its not that I suck at spelling, its that I just don't care

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    I do think the election loss bit is funny...

    ...but lots and lots and lots of people believe in the rapture. it's a core part of catholocism, lutheranism, presbyterianism, etc, just christianity in general.

    however I think it's the wackos who believe it's coming anytime soon...or are arrogant enough to believe they can help expedite its coming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper Bones
    ...but lots and lots and lots of people believe in the rapture. it's a core part of catholocism, lutheranism, presbyterianism, etc, just christianity in general.

    however I think it's the wackos who believe it's coming anytime soon...or are arrogant enough to believe they can help expedite its coming.
    Good for you. Believe in your rapture ASSHOLE BUT KEEP IT OUT OF FUCKING POLITICS!!! It is the same "arrogant wackos" you refer to who are running this country.

    And that was the whole point of this entire thread.
    "Proud not to be a member of the CCCP: Christian Conservative Coalition Party." SJG#3

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    Find the Jesus Factor episode and watch it.
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/view/
    It will explain the first election, and I say, applies to the last election too of our born again leader.

    Let me put it this way, if you did not vote for him, your two neighbors did.
    Know thy neighbor.
    And remember, your kids will go to school with their kids.

    Welcome to the 3rd Great Awakening.
    May God bless us all.

    Now, where is that pope icon button??? No wait, not the pope, that is for us Catholics (the other Christians)...I guess we need an icon to represent the Christian Coalition.

    BTW, this thread, while enlightening to some, is a total mojo suck.
    Back to the ski stoke for me
    Ski, Bike, Climb.
    Resistence is futile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmear
    I think Bill Moyers is a great journalist and researcher who always examines issues from all sides, but his article above seems to be written out of fear and frustration. No group, not even the religious right, should be stereotyped as 'this' or 'that.'
    What he said.

    Hey Natty, what's up with all the NSR political posts lately? You're killing the stoke. You must be in Oregon where the stoke is dead along with the closed resorts. Snap out of it dood.
    "In the woods, we return to reason and faith. There I feel that nothing can befall me in life, no disgrace, no calamity, (leaving me my eyes,) which nature cannot repair." -Emerson

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper Bones
    blow me.
    hahaha

    How utterly "Christian" of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumper Bones
    ...but lots and lots and lots of people believe in the rapture. it's a core part of catholocism, lutheranism, presbyterianism, etc, just christianity in general.
    I can't speak for Catholics and Presbyterians, but the Rapture is not part of Lutheran teachings. Whereas most fundamentalists view the Book of Revelation as a prophecy yet to come (the book hold much of the grist for much of the Left Behind books' depiction of the Tribulation), the Lutheran church views Revelation an allegorical vision of a possible future -- "a wakeup call" for first-century Christians.

    Most people who read the "Left Behind" series believe that it is what the Bible teaches. But its fixation on Armageddon and war is a distinctly American invention. It should also be noted that the Rapture theory itself is quite new. It was largely invented around 1830 by a British evangelical named John Nelson Darby and really took off with the piblishing of the Scofield Bible in the early 1900's.
    Charlie, here comes the deuce. And when you speak of me, speak well.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stu Gotz
    I can't speak for Catholics and Presbyterians, but the Rapture is not part of Lutheran teachings. Whereas most fundamentalists view the Book of Revelation as a prophecy yet to come (the book hold much of the grist for much of the Left Behind books' depiction of the Tribulation), the Lutheran church views Revelation an allegorical vision of a possible future -- "a wakeup call" for first-century Christians.

    Most people who read the "Left Behind" series believe that it is what the Bible teaches. But its fixation on Armageddon and war is a distinctly American invention. It should also be noted that the Rapture theory itself is quite new. It was largely invented around 1830 by a British evangelical named John Nelson Darby and really took off with the piblishing of the Scofield Bible in the early 1900's.
    I've got 12 years of RC education that says the rapture is at best a backwater in modern catholic theology.
    Damn, we're in a tight spot!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornbread
    Good for you. Believe in your rapture ASSHOLE BUT KEEP IT OUT OF FUCKING POLITICS!!! It is the same "arrogant wackos" you refer to who are running this country.

    And that was the whole point of this entire thread.
    I guess I missed that...I saw the thread degenerating into a slamfest on anybody stupid enough to believe in the rapture. Witness AKPM's and Svengali's posts...

    btw - anybody stupid enough to believe in the rapture = a whole lot of people. Every Catholic you know, etc...I think you get the point, it's a core part of all of christianity.

    and ice, you won't hear me whistling "onward christian soldiers" or going door-to-door prosthelytizing anytime soon. Decisions I've made on how to live my life. Some christians, like certain other faiths, feel that consuming beer is a sin, which I personally don't agree with either. I'm sure it'd amuse you to know that I'm going to be in bible-belt hell of Oklahoma for the next several months, the other land of the 3.2% beer and no alcohol sales on sundays or refrigerated...

    anyway I think I've said my points. Sorry I douched up a political thread, but remember not to squelch people's freedoms of choice in the things you say in regards to voting or religion. Unless it's Tanner Hall.

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