Targhee adopts two class pass system- tell them NO!

[183GotamasA/T]

And if the program sells well, are they really going to assign instructor/guides to that many people or do they get let off the leash, is what I'm wondering. Early Tracks was complained about when it started and we were reassured it was a limited program designed to generate jobs for the instructors who "guide". It would seem that reassurance was a load of bullshit so who's to say that early tracks will not be expanded to cover more and more desirable terrain and become, de facto, not a guided program but an early opening time for a couple hundred people.

I spoke with the director of early tracks and I will reassure you that there will be guides with every group.
The big question is how many groups will there be?
I don't see it being a big problem as Targhee is known for it's refills.

[Toecutter]

If you support that trend, then would you support 10 billionaires plunking down the equivalent of a ski mountains total cost of operation with a reasonable profit to boot and close off the mountain to the rest of the public? They could downsize bigtime by getting rid of a lot of staff, reducing operating costs and make it even more profitable.

Think Cartmannn.

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clip...musing-himself

I believe that private resort setup exists:
http://www.yellowstoneclub.com/skiing/private_powder/

[powder_prophet]

If you really want to "make your voice heard," then don't buy a pass next year. Simple as that. Ski for free in the bc. Or you can join us over on this side, pay $1500 for your pass, get in line at 7:30, and still have two trams full of instructors, guides, and other "VIPs" in front of you.

I guess the big difference, and what it comes down to, is that at the Village, its worth it. 100%. We put up with the bullshit, the extra $$$, the extra people, etc. and still love everyday on the hill because this place is rad.

Is Targhee worth it?

[givethepigeye]

Oh, I see opportunity all right. I see an opportunity to get fleeced for something for which I used to pay a lot less.

Kind of like when taxes go up. Welcome to the club.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Good point on voting with your wallet. I hear there's a pretty decent ski area on the other side of Teton Pass.

[neckdeep]

I spoke with the director of early tracks and I will reassure you that there will be guides with every group.
The big question is how many groups will there be?
I don't see it being a big problem as Targhee is known for it's refills.

I hope you are right but I think the po' folks have seen their last track free powder morning on any of the long lines between Ladies Waist and Nasty Gash. Since you have an inside source, please explain to me why the resort can't just raise everyone's price a modest amount and keep the same level of service for everyone? I've often said I'd pay $1000 bucks a year for a pass if the resort actually had an infrastructure to justify that price. But they don't; no other resort the size and ticket price ($70) of Targhee gets by with only two rickety old lifts covering the entire 1500 acres of the upper mountain, a two acre mini-park, minimal grooming and no snow making. $600 is a fair price for what is provided but I'd gladly pay more to abolish early tracks and get DC running in storms like it used to and even more if there was any sort of plan to use the money to build or rebuild lifts and put in a real park/pipe. We are paying for the untracked powder, not because we have a world class tram or multiple lifts and parks or snow making for shitty seasons.

[calisnow]

Neckdeep - what does NOT make sense is a resort selling two different products that are of different value for the same price. That is the case with powder vs hard-packed snow. They are not worth the same and there is no reason to charge the same amount for them.

Your argument is the same one used by people who can't wrap their heads around the beauty of efficient markets to say that rent control should exist in cities.

It would be idiotic for a grocery store to sell beer and champagne at the same price. What would happen? Every morning people would line up before opening and stampede through the doors to purchase champagne for the same price as beer.

Eventually someone in management would wise up and do what any person who graduated from Economics 101 would do - they would raise the price of champagne so that supply equals demand.

The analogy holds for powder at resorts. Powder is in higher demand than hardpack snow - therefore it is logical that it should cost more - and the logical way to raise the price of powder is to charge more for early access. This, therefore, becomes an efficient market - powder is available to those who are willing to purchase it at its true market value.

I WISH my home mountain of Mammoth had an early-ups program like Targhee. I would gladly pay it. The $10K black pass at Mammoth is not a real early ups program because the early-ups are scheduled way in advance.

The day Mammoth institutes a program like Targhee is about to I will say "hallelujah" and purchase it so that I can access the goods. Your arguments make absolutely no sense Neckdeep. I respect your right to your opinions but they're not based in reality. I'd never put you in charge of pricing products in a business.

[calisnow]

Neckdeep said: "Since you have an inside source, please explain to me why the resort can't just raise everyone's price a modest amount and keep the same level of service for everyone?"

Why not Neckdeep? Because whoever is in charge of pricing the resort tickets is thankfully too intelligent to follow a strategy of charging the same price for Mercedes and Hondas. They are doing the right thing - charging more for powder.

[183GotamasA/T]

Since you have an inside source, please explain to me why the resort can't just raise everyone's price a modest amount and keep the same level of service for everyone?

Next season's pass prices are down approx 20%.
I doubt you'll lose 20% of your untracked.
Not a bad deal for the po' folk.

[calisnow]

Here's my guess - unsupported by any data - as to why these programs are happening. The culture of skiing has shifted and I think powder is more in demand, and more valued, than it was 10 or 15 years ago. Blame Mcconkey for your woes, sir. He helped revolutionize powder ski design, making the pleasures of pow more accessible than before, thus raising demand for it, thus raising its value, thus leading to ski resorts following the laws of the market and charging more for pow.

Now fucking deal with it.

[rideit]

Us knuckledraggers had that shit figured out 30 years ago.
Copycats!!!

[183GotamasA/T]

We all want to be surfing!

[Ottime]

^^^Yeah. Pure meritocracy there.

And Calisnow, you've got it wrong. I'd never bum rush the champagne over beer regardless of price. Maybe some good wine, but not that sparkly crap.

Another way you've got it wrong is that the resort need not charge more for powder, otherwise we'd see higher ticket prices on powder days. They just need to hit a revenue goal, any which way they can. ND idea could work for some resorts, and it is possible that the Ghees plan will fail. If there a wealthy enough local base to buy enough Ultimate Passes to compensate for the lose of sales on regular passes? Maybe not. It is not like it is near a wealthy center like LA.

Anyway, I am pissing on ND a bit jus cause it is a bit of fun. But in reality, I believe he does have a point. Out here, we are waiting to see what Vail announces for us. Paid just over $250 for my unlimited pass this season, and the only way I can ski at KW on holidays this year (so far) is to buy an Epic Pass for $659. Hoping the KW only pass comes out and is sub $400, cause I have no intention of traveling to CO next winter, let alone SLT.

On thing to consider ND, is how many peeps will actually show up for the first tracks. Our local program allows line cutting, except for first chair on a powder day. Hope Vail does not change that. But with the crowds we have seen recently, would almost be worth it to pay the $499 to avoid the new lines.

[Sluffy]

purchase champagne for the same price as beer.

your wierd

[Toecutter]

Could this be analogous to buying a front row/center seat versus nosebleed seats at a sporting event? Same "product" but you pay more for a preferential experience?

[calisnow]

ND - you're paying for your powder now. You're paying with the time you invest lining up in the morning. So what you're asking Targhee to do is to keep accepting your "currency" - your time invested in lining up as "payment" for their powder, instead of accepting a currency that they can actually use - dollar bills.

My time is worth money, and I will vote with my dollars to give a resort my money instead of my time. Over a season at Mammoth I probably waste at least an entire working day, if not more, of 8-10 hours lining up for early chairs to score some powder.

I would gladly get that working day back in return for giving up some money.

[calisnow]

@Toecutter - this is exactly what it is analogous to. ND's argument is the same one people use who can't understand why prime seats should cost more than nosebleed seats.

The anger ND is expressing is the same anger and frustration expressed by anyone who does not have or is not willing to pay the price for any other product in life, and who gets upset that more desirable products have higher price tags.

I think we simply haven't had to deal with this in skiing yet because "early ups" years ago were not the valuable product that they are today.

This thread has me fired up because every fucking time I'm getting out of bed extra early to avoid the powder-day shit-show at Mammoth and get a few un-tracked turns in, I start grumbling to myself about how Mammoth should have a pay-to-play early ups program.

[Crampedon]

@Toecutter - this is exactly what it is analogous to. ND's argument is the same one people use who can't understand why prime seats should cost more than nosebleed seats.

The anger ND is expressing is the same anger and frustration expressed by anyone who does not have or is not willing to pay the price for any other product in life, and who gets upset that more desirable products have higher price tags.

I think we simply haven't had to deal with this in skiing yet because "early ups" years ago were not the valuable product that they are today.

This thread has me fired up because every fucking time I'm getting out of bed extra early to avoid the powder-day shit-show at Mammoth and get a few un-tracked turns in, I start grumbling to myself about how Mammoth should have a pay-to-play early ups program.

Spot on.

I give an annual donation to our local arts and cultural center, and can buy tickets to shows a week before the public, or non-members. This allows me consistent access to front center seats, it's worth the money. I see friends at shows 40 rows back and tell them, buy a minimum $$ membership and get with the program

Speaking of Vail, if you want fresh tracks there, just be the slightest bit assertive and get there 30 minutes before the lifts open and you will get fresh tracks.

I wish Vail had a program like Whistler, open up ElkElk for breakfast early and line up at the gate to open the back before the punters get in line at their ski Valet!

[raisingarizona13]

Wow, this is DISGUSTING! The ski industry is trying to turn itself into a high class country club style of resort, and it sucks. I understand that this is their prerogative (a la good ol style capitalism), but it's still disgusting. Even if I had the $, I wouldn't consider such a pass just based on the principle (and hope that most others wouldn't consider it as well).

Sure hope many other skis areas don't start going down this road, but frankly it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Trying to? This has already happened years ago. I'm stoked that people like MRA are trying to change these trends. The working man can barely afford to go skiing let alone buy some of those 15 dollar cheeseburgers.

[TBS]

Dude, I think you are catastrphizing here. I can get early ups at a spot price of $49? Are there consistently way more than 20 days per year when your average yuppie would find it "so worth it" to get a 30 minute jump on all of the poor locals? If you only get 10-20 taking the walk-up retail price, I don't really think you are gonna see a lot more buy the upgrade. But go ahead and worry away...

True, as a daily upgrade, early tracks usually draws only 10 to 20 skiers but if the resort manages to sell 100 or 200 or more of these ultimate passes (as I'm sure they would like to)...well, you can't deny some of the longest powder runs won't ever be the same for the rest of us who don't want to drop an extra $1000 for some jam band concerts and a swimming pool membership. Given the list price for those access privileges and six days of concerts, they are practically giving away the early tracks access so this may well create a sizable group of rich old farts and music enthusiasts out there making those wonderfully wide turns they do so well. And if the program sells well, are they really going to assign instructor/guides to that many people or do they get let off the leash, is what I'm wondering. Early Tracks was complained about when it started and we were reassured it was a limited program designed to generate jobs for the instructors who "guide". It would seem that reassurance was a load of bullshit so who's to say that early tracks will not be expanded to cover more and more desirable terrain and become, de facto, not a guided program but an early opening time for a couple hundred people.

[TBS]

BTW, I've been trying to get Mt Hood meadows to have a deal where you get early ups with patrol when they fire the howitzer for AC. I would so pay for that!

[Benny Profane]

Yeah, most rich old people can't or won't ski powder.

[SuperGaper]

It would be pretty sweet on days I have work to do, to be able to get there early, bang out a couple pow laps, then move on with my day. Lots of missed pow days these past couple seasons because Jackson took till 11 to get itself open.

Ha ha, you work M-F as an accountant in the bowels of the Four Seasons, like you know about pow mornings.

Neckdeep, you need to shut the fuck up. You ski at a resort, they make the rules.

Last time I checked, Targhee is on the edge of calling it a day.

I get in line every powder day, sometimes 6:30am, sometimes late, I watch the "wallet" cars go up without complaint, because I know there is plenty for me. I still get poor-mans heli skiing.

And as I said in one of my first ever posts on TGR, moving to the Tetons to ski Targhee is like moving to Tahoe to ski Northstar.

I am going to have to stand by that.

[Pete Maniaci]

Thats rough. It doesn't really sound like the Ghee I remember but I could see that things were going to change. Its evolution of capitalism. Many have said go to the backcountry. You can go as early as you want. The things the Ghee did and my own evolution and goals made me spend less at the resort. It is an elitist sport and anyone who boasts about their number of days each season should feel very lucky. I know I did. I quit hanging out at the bar and brought my own lunch and beers. I quit buying passes for the first time this season. No ghee, no Epic and my turns where wonderful. The only thing I feel most sad about are the wonderful people who are scraping by at the resort selling goods out of the general store and serving food/drinks at the trap who don't get my business because the cost and feel of the resort drove me away. As far as resorts go, Targhee is still better than most.

[Spats]

Is Targhee on public or private land?

If public, there's a strong argument against any sort of discriminatory access program. There are very few ski areas, and it's not like shopping for groceries or lightbulbs: people can't just say "Prices went up, I'll go to the other store."

Most importantly, the pro-privilege people are missing the point entirely. Targhee has the freedom to float the idea of an expensive privilege pass...

...and we all have the freedom to tell them the idea sucks. Economic freedom does NOT mean "shut up and passively take an endless train of dicks up your ass".

I, for one, have no interest in visiting a resort where people can track it out before I get there.