Avy air bag article in the Denver Post

[Elkhound Odin]

Too bad it wasn't printed on Sunday to so more people would see it. The author did a good job of downplaying the air bag as a life saving device.

Soules' death is the first in the U.S. for someone wearing an avalanche air-bag system. But worldwide, air bags have a less-than-perfect record.

"Air bags improve your chance of survival, but not nearly at the level most people think," said Dale Atkins, president of the American Avalanche Association, who worked 20 years as a forecaster for the Colorado Avalanche Information Center and serves as a training chief for avalanche-safety company RECCO.

With only a handful of North American incidents involving air bags that resulted in nary an injury, Atkins said "the perception of air bags is misshapen."

Using European — mostly Swiss — data of avalanche accidents involving air bags, which have been used across the pond for more than 25 years, Atkins paints a much less rosy picture of the inflatable tools.

Based on those statistics, about three in 100 people equipped with air bags survive an avalanche.

While most air-bag stats show survival rates of people who deployed their air bags, those numbers do not reflect the people who could not or forgot to pull the ripcord; forgot to fill the cartridge in the pack; did not install the cartridge correctly; or suffered a technical malfunction with the system.

Or, as in Soules' case, the air bags didn't make a difference.

"We can use technology to help reduce risk, but we can't eliminate risk — and I think a lot of people see technology as a sort of shield," said Atkins, noting that half of U.S. avalanche deaths involve people wearing avalanche transceivers. "The user has to be very careful about not perceiving these pieces of personal protection equipment as shields. What they do is put you in a place to be lucky. We shouldn't use these tools thinking we can go out and expose ourselves to more danger."

full article here: http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_20000697

[WARY]

Hold on, we made and sold our first AviVest in 2006......just sayin"

[mattyj]

I'm having trouble reconciling this with other things I've read. I'm not pro-airbag and just had to explain the difference between wide open alpine terrain and the heavily treed stuff I normally ski in to my mother as a result of all the news coverage this weekend, but . . .

Based on those statistics, about three in 100 people equipped with air bags survive an avalanche.

Since I've read that european data also shows a stunning survival rate for airbag deployments, either one set of numbers is way off or 95% of people fail to properly deploy an airbag when caught in an avalanche. Also, given how many people have survived avalanches using airbags, a 3% survival rate would mean many thousands of avalanche deaths for airbag wearers over the study timeframe.

I would expect a >3% survival rate just from staying afloat / skiing out, with no safety gear at all.

[Alkasquawlik]

I'm having trouble reconciling this with other things I've read. I'm not pro-airbag and just had to explain the difference between wide open alpine terrain and the heavily treed stuff I normally ski in to my mother as a result of all the news coverage this weekend, but . . .



Since I've read that european data also shows a stunning survival rate for airbag deployments, either one set of numbers is way off or 95% of people fail to properly deploy an airbag when caught in an avalanche. Also, given how many people have survived avalanches using airbags, a 3% survival rate would mean many thousands of avalanche deaths for airbag wearers over the study timeframe.

I would expect a >3% survival rate just from staying afloat / skiing out, with no safety gear at all.

Agreed, I believe they flipped that wording incorrectly. The data shows about the exact opposite, a 97% survival rate with a deployed airbag.

[Bunion 2020]

I have a hard time believing that statistics isn't backwards as well given the predominant above treeline terrain in Europe.

That being said, I think the interview on the Today show probably convinced the untrained that an airbag system is a magic bullet. Not because that is what was said by the woman being interviewed, but by what people want to hear.

Several of my staff members have received concerned phone calls from parents/relatives inquiring about whether or not they now use an ABS.

I am still on the fence about the usefulness of ABS for our particular application.

[icelanticskier]

interesting.........................^^^^^^^^

rog

[rideit]

I have a hard time believing that statistics isn't backwards as well given the predominant above treeline terrain in Europe.

That being said, I think the interview on the Today show probably convinced the untrained that an airbag system is a magic bullet. Not because that is what was said by the woman being interviewed, but by what people want to hear.

Several of my staff members have received concerned phone calls from parents/relatives inquiring about whether or not they now use an ABS.

I am still on the fence about the usefulness of ABS for our particular application.

that said, from a liability standpoint, if a pro patroller dies inbounds now Without a company issued airbag or device, you can be sure that it will come up in the 'best practices' conversations that will follow.

[Bunion 2020]

For now, It WILL come up.

It certainly did after the patroller fatality at JHMR.

However, ABS has yet to be a proven BMP.

I and my folks have discussed this some and there are varying opinions.

On some routes an ABS is prudent, on others it wouldn't make a bit of difference one way or another. The nub of the matter is when/if it comes down to an OSHA investigation/citation.

[Alkasquawlik]

I have a hard time believing that statistics isn't backwards as well given the predominant above treeline terrain in Europe.

That being said, I think the interview on the Today show probably convinced the untrained that an airbag system is a magic bullet. Not because that is what was said by the woman being interviewed, but by what people want to hear.

Several of my staff members have received concerned phone calls from parents/relatives inquiring about whether or not they now use an ABS.

I am still on the fence about the usefulness of ABS for our particular application.

But what is the reason to not get one? They are in no way a magic bullet but if they even, at their absolute worst, have the potential to increase your odds of survival, then why would you not wear one?

I actually really don't even understand the debate. Sure they're not the end all be all in avalanche survival, but they do help save lives at a higher measured rate than even a beacon does. So why wouldn't you add one to your already established beacon, shovel, probe avalanche kit?

[skifishbum]

^^^10 pages of that discussion
why doesn't everyone who tours have avvy 2 or a quality 1st aid cert?
which would you perfer your partners to have
those or an abs?
Why doesn't everyone wear helmets too?

[ShadyNasty]

^^^
uncommon common sense

yeah, totally no one should risk the backcountry until they have spent 2-3 grand on avy gear, certifications, and medical training

guidelines are not universal rules for everyone

[Bunion 2020]

But what is the reason to not get one? They are in no way a magic bullet but if they even, at their absolute worst, have the potential to increase your odds of survival, then why would you not wear one?

I actually really don't even understand the debate. Sure they're not the end all be all in avalanche survival, but they do help save lives at a higher measured rate than even a beacon does. So why wouldn't you add one to your already established beacon, shovel, probe avalanche kit?

For one thing, weight. I work inbounds doing avalanche hazard reduction.

I already carry a pack that weighs 17 pounds minus any explosives. Add in what the guts of an ABS weighs and that total goes to around 23 pounds.

The back and knees can only carry so much weight for so many days a season before they just give out. I have had a 27 year career carrying a 17 pound pack around 120 days. Up that load and injury rates "could" shorten that career span appreciatively.

I prefer to rely on good judgement, experience and good route techniques.

The whole point is to never need to stay on top or be dug out breathing.

[Clownshoe]

It hasn't happened yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if ABS systems become mandatory for avalanche control work up here in Canada.

I'm still on the fence about wearing one at work, mainly for the same reasons Bunion was talking about (mainly weight).

But as Alka mentioned, as the evidence mounts, its hard not to see this as a reasonable tool to add to the toolbox for those of us who are in starts zones regularly. Especially if the size/weight of the overall package comes down a bit...

[turnbuckle]

Atkins paints a much less rosy picture of the inflatable tools. Based on those statistics, about three in 100 people equipped with air bags survive an avalanche.

The author has this backwards. He took this from Dale Atkins "rescue technology" course which states:

According to accidents records collected by the Swiss Federal Institute for Snow and Avalanche Research (SLF)—from 1990 through August 2010—there have been 249 documented accidents involving 295 users equipped with airbags. Nearly all airbags of record are from the German ABS line as until very recently these were the only airbags available. Of the 295 equipped people 262 successfully deployed their bags, 7 (3%) died.

Here's the link to Atkins course materials: http://www.nsp-pnwd.org/Avalanche/17...Technology.pdf

[dos bolsas]

But what is the reason to not get one? They are in no way a magic bullet but if they even, at their absolute worst, have the potential to increase your odds of survival, then why would you not wear one?

For heli, lift assist, sidecountry, etc., absolutely.

For bigger tours, cramps, etc., not all the time.

[JoeStrummer]

I rely on cowardice, which is nature's ABS. It doesn't weigh anything, deploys with ease and rapidity, and requires no O-Ring replacements or lengthy TSA impoundments.

The "sell me a lifestyle" nature of what we do will soon cause a race for quality amongst the manufacturers of these packs, as they embrace carbon bottles and lighter materials and start selling them at Sports Authority for $149. The pack I buy in 2 years will be an ipod nano next to the kludgy 8-track players you all are buying at the moment.

And until then, I will rely on judgment and cowardice, applied liberally!

[dos bolsas]

And until then, I will rely on judgment and cowardice, applied liberally!

heh, judgement in future will be a jetpack.

[Buster Highmen]

I rely on cowardice, which is nature's ABS. It doesn't weigh anything, deploys with ease and rapidity, and requires no O-Ring replacements or lengthy TSA impoundments.

The "sell me a lifestyle" nature of what we do will soon cause a race for quality amongst the manufacturers of these packs, as they embrace carbon bottles and lighter materials and start selling them at Sports Authority for $149. The pack I buy in 2 years will be an ipod nano next to the kludgy 8-track players you all are buying at the moment.

And until then, I will rely on judgment and cowardice, applied liberally!

I mix even amounts of chickenshit and laziness, apply it to my boobs and then go hit the gnar.

[neufox47]

But what is the reason to not get one? They are in no way a magic bullet but if they even, at their absolute worst, have the potential to increase your odds of survival, then why would you not wear one?

I actually really don't even understand the debate. Sure they're not the end all be all in avalanche survival, but they do help save lives at a higher measured rate than even a beacon does. So why wouldn't you add one to your already established beacon, shovel, probe avalanche kit?

For one thing, weight. I work inbounds doing avalanche hazard reduction.

I already carry a pack that weighs 17 pounds minus any explosives. Add in what the guts of an ABS weighs and that total goes to around 23 pounds.

The back and knees can only carry so much weight for so many days a season before they just give out. I have had a 27 year career carrying a 17 pound pack around 120 days. Up that load and injury rates "could" shorten that career span appreciatively.

I prefer to rely on good judgement, experience and good route techniques.

The whole point is to never need to stay on top or be dug out breathing.

I think these two quotes pretty much sum up the two sides / positions. If you rely on skiing big lines and filming for your living or want to do that for your hobby / passion, as Cody said, it's a no brainer.

If you are going to be (as close to as you can) 100% sure that it won't slide, it may not be for you.

I doubt Cody could keep his career if he had the same risk tolerance as most.

Likewise, if Bunion took the risks Cody does regularly, he would probably get fired.

[Alkasquawlik]

For one thing, weight. I work inbounds doing avalanche hazard reduction.

I already carry a pack that weighs 17 pounds minus any explosives. Add in what the guts of an ABS weighs and that total goes to around 23 pounds.

The back and knees can only carry so much weight for so many days a season before they just give out. I have had a 27 year career carrying a 17 pound pack around 120 days. Up that load and injury rates "could" shorten that career span appreciatively.

I prefer to rely on good judgement, experience and good route techniques.

The whole point is to never need to stay on top or be dug out breathing.

I totally understand your sentiments. Funny thing is 23 pounds is about a 1/3 of the weight the filmers I work with ski around with 60+ days a year. Not trying to call you out on that, but those filmers we work with are pretty damn impressive. It's insane some of the stuff they ski with the packs they do. If anyone needs a light weight ABS bag it's them.

But I digress, to answer neufox 47: I would actually say that I'm probably in far less riskier avalanche scenarios than most patrolmen around the world. We're often chicken shits when it comes to avy's. I can't tell you how many times we've turned around and gone home when avy's become involved with our filming. Even when we could probably play on mini-lines or in the trees, we often just turn around and drink some beers. Our risk tolerance as professional skiers generally applies to air heights, massive tumbles, and/or exposure.

When it comes to judgement, I agree, it's the best possible tool for avalanche safety. I've only been caught in one quite minor slide in AK that mainly just pulled me to the outrun. Otherwise I try in every way I can to never pull my bag.

Oh and lastly, the bags are in reality not that heavy. My first impressions were that it was heavier than my more than the nearly weightless older packs. But after a week, I never thought about it again. I tour, sled, bootpack and heli with it. It pretty much doesn't come off my back when anywhere in the bc.

[Bunion 2020]

I totally understand your sentiments. Funny thing is 23 pounds is about a 1/3 of the weight the filmers I work with ski around with 60+ days a year. Not trying to call you out on that, but those filmers we work with are pretty damn impressive.

Not sure that you do, I am sure they are and that you didn't but you did and you don't.

[Alkasquawlik]

Not sure that you do, I am sure they are and that you didn't but you did and you don't.

Reply ftw.

[covert]

But what is the reason to not get one?

For me there was no valid reason not to get one. I wear it every day at work. It's a mediocre pack and adds some pounds to my average load. My level of exposure more than justifies the inconvenience. I consider it a proven tool under the right circumstances. one more tool for the box.