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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
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    Park City
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    1,123

    This sets an impossible standard for the resorts

    Quote Originally Posted by blazes_boylan View Post
    I can walk anywhere in the world through any gate. So many gates have an upslope walk or skate necessary to access. The only viable alternative will be to close the full zone. it is a frustrating ruling in a very unfortunate circumstance.

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    bottom of the hobacks
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    463
    Quote Originally Posted by The SnowShow View Post
    Keystone is the new Snowbird

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
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    Park City
    Posts
    2,188
    Well, I would like to think this would go differently at a ski hill owned by another corp. however, after watching Vail full on screw the pooch at PC I absolutely believe that the skeleton crew probably had too much to do and closing the lower gate was missed.
    I rip the groomed on tele gear

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
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    bottom of the hobacks
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    463
    ^^^ Have you read the articles or understand the situation??

    Lower gate was opened and should have been open, it's much safer terrain and I don't think anyone in the situation is doubting the safety of opening the lower portion of prima cornice. Seriously, "closing the lower gate was probably missed"...? That's pretty fucking ludacris. I hate to back vail up 99% of the time but the patrol there are professionals and they wouldn't treat gate closures so loosely.

    What is in question is the signage/ropes, or lacktherof prohibiting people from skiing/hiking (this group's scenario) back up into the closed and more dangerous terrain.
    Quote Originally Posted by The SnowShow View Post
    Keystone is the new Snowbird

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    your vacation
    Posts
    1,034
    Quote Originally Posted by detrusor View Post
    Well, I would like to think this would go differently at a ski hill owned by another corp. however, after watching Vail full on screw the pooch at PC I absolutely believe that the skeleton crew probably had too much to do and closing the lower gate was missed.
    Your more or less right, it's well known that employees are disposable for vail corp. What was once a life long career is now just something to pass the time until you figure out what you want to do in life.

    Super low wages, high ski patrol turn over, lack of years long knowledge of the mountains layout, pretty simple

    ski patrol is being forced by the powers that be in broomfield to open as much terrain as fast as possible, alot of patrolers need many years experience to be good at what they do, many only last two years

  6. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Gaperville, CO
    Posts
    2,235
    Quote Originally Posted by fastfred View Post
    Your more or less right, it's well known that employees are disposable for vail corp. What was once a life long career is now just something to pass the time until you figure out what you want to do in life.

    Super low wages, high ski patrol turn over, lack of years long knowledge of the mountains layout, pretty simple

    ski patrol is being forced by the powers that be in broomfield to open as much terrain as fast as possible, alot of patrolers need many years experience to be good at what they do, many only last two years
    Low wages and turnover may be true. But from what I have read this isn't at all about whether the lower gate was intended to be open or not, it was.

    The question is whether resorts have to explicitly sign that no uphill hiking or traversing into closed terrain is allowed. The lower gate was open on purpose. The victims hiked uphill from that gate into closed terrain.

  7. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    9,498
    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    Low wages and turnover may be true. But from what I have read this isn't at all about whether the lower gate was intended to be open or not, it was.

    The question is whether resorts have to explicitly sign that no uphill hiking or traversing into closed terrain is allowed. The lower gate was open on purpose. The victims hiked uphill from that gate into closed terrain.
    That is it in the most basic of terms.

    I always kept a stock of Do Not Hike Above This Sign signs in my inventory for those areas. Many skiers will interpret a situation however is to their advantage unless there is a sign telling them not to. And that is still not guarantee.

    Had Vail put up such a sign there is always the chance it would get ignored or even chucked into the trees.

    This whole thing falls into the Inherent Risk of Skiing. The group skied to a closed gate, cut around and below and hiked up into a closed area. Sucks that one of them died. Lesson learned until the next time.

    When I was at Park City I helped string a mile of flagged rope and signs along ski team ridge saying and indicating that there was no access for a World Cup race. Two young guys duck ed the rope after skiing along and admitted they saw all the signs. Court found against the ski area anyway.

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    ECO
    Posts
    2,793
    When there is a chase for fresh snow, some peoples minds get clouded or they just dgaf. It is sad but not surprising in the least. Also not really going to stop the next soul most likely. At some point personal responsibility has to come into the picture, but how that really works when dealing with youngsters is troublesome. Adults I have less sympathy for. The answer is clear as mud.

  9. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    none
    Posts
    5,753
    Traversing in below the last closed sign/ gate, is generally acceptable.
    But climbing up is taboo just about anywhere I've skied.
    As much as I hate VR, I think they should prevail.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
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    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  11. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Gaperville, CO
    Posts
    2,235
    Tough case but the right decision.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Splat's Garage
    Posts
    3,142
    I'm sad for the family. I don't think I've posted this here before, but I was there that day. I skied Prima a couple runs that day. I was not in his group at all, but I did ski the run what must have been before him. Not in the same zone, however.

    I saw Taft on the sled. Ski Patrol was performing CPR.

    I'll never forget that day.

    RIP Taft

  13. #38
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    Dec 2009
    Location
    ECO
    Posts
    2,793
    Sad event for all involved.

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    850
    Quote Originally Posted by Summit View Post
    Glad to see this.

  15. #40
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,246
    Quote Originally Posted by Hott Butt Mud View Post
    I'm sad for the family. I don't think I've posted this here before, but I was there that day. I skied Prima a couple runs that day. I was not in his group at all, but I did ski the run what must have been before him. Not in the same zone, however.

    I saw Taft on the sled. Ski Patrol was performing CPR.

    I'll never forget that day.

    RIP Taft
    Respect man. Was a crazy day.

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Closed Area
    Posts
    1,134
    https://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/fo...n-died-letter/

    Former patroller: Prima Cornice should have been closed the day Taft Conlin died (letter)

    To whom it may concern: I read with sadness about the jury's decision in Ingalls v. Vail ("Jury rules for Vail Resorts in skier death case," Randy Wyrick, Thursday, June 21).

    I started as a Vail ski instructor in the 1975-77 seasons and then a Vail snowcat driver. After that, I was a professional ski patroller on Vail Mountain. For two years, I was assigned to living in the caretaker's cottage adjacent to Patrol Headquarters on top of Vail Mountain. There, I oversaw doing the early-morning weather/snow and avalanche risk assessment and appropriate control assignments.

    I made up the avalanche bombs and assigned all the avalanche-control routes to the patrollers when they arrived at the top of the mountain. I dug countless snow pits and taught avalanche safety classes. In the summers, I was foreman of the summer Signs and Closures Crew and built most of the signs, closures and gates on Vail Mountain. I buildt the upper and lower Prima Cornice gates that Mr. Conlin skied past and through.

    After that, I was promoted from ski patrol to supervisor of Vail Mountain Trail Crew, World Cup Racing and Special Events. I oversaw all signs, closures and trail marking and trail maintenance. I was in charge of the first World Cups, which Vail hosted when the races returned to the United States. I went on to be director of mountain operations at Beaver Creek and eventually managing director of Beaver Creek for Vail Resorts (then Vail Associates). I was recruited to be president and general manager of Catamount Ranch and Club in Steamboat Springs and thus ended 25 wonderful years with Vail.

    Why am I saddened by the verdict? Firstly, Prima Cornice is a highly, extremely dangerous area. The exposure and its proclivity to "load" with snow from the westerly wind-driven snows made the area incredibly unpredictable. I always preferred to "shoot" Prima Cornice on days we had new snow and winds. We had a normal, minimal, six-shot route, with three thrown high and three thrown low.

    I don't suppose to second guess the patrol's on-site decisions; however, the fact even the lower gate was opened with no control other than some ski cutting seemed very odd.

    Secondly, that lower gate should never been left open on Jan. 22, 2012. I know for a fact that when skiers entered the lower gates, they routinely hiked uphill. I have seen it countless times, and in time after time when I've skied Prima Cornice, I've seen tracks of skiers who have climbed. I always considered the lower gate to be an entrance to the entire Prima Cornice slope. And, we all knew that some of the local kids would not duck a rope but that they would take advantage of an open gate on a powder day.

    The testimony at trial apparently showed that young people had climbed up the slope from the lower gate. Had I been on duty on Jan. 22, 2012, I would have made sure both gates were closed.

    I was extremely troubled that only one "expert witness" was called. There are many past patrollers with vast experience who could have spoken to the Prima Cornice facts. The jury could have been much better informed as to the history behind the closures to Prima Cornice, the history of hiking up in the area and the incredible snow hazards in that specific area.

    In closing, I regret having to write this letter, but I could not, in clear conscience, let my clear memories of Prima Cornice go unmentioned.

    Sincerely,

    Michael Beckley

    Denver

  17. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    9,300ft
    Posts
    16,280
    Quote Originally Posted by covert View Post
    Michael Beckley

    Denver[/I]
    He doesn't mention that after he retired from Vail management in 2000, he became a skiing legal consultant.
    Quote Originally Posted by blurred
    skiing is hiking all day so that you can ski on shitty gear for 5 minutes.

  18. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    truckee
    Posts
    8,766
    I'm sure the patrollers who made the call on keeping the gate open were also very experienced. If victims/families are allowed to second guess the judgement of experienced patrollers there will be nothing open.

  19. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    under the hogback shadow
    Posts
    2,547
    I don't suppose to second guess the patrol's on-site decisions; however, ........I'm going to anyway......
    What a tool. Must be trying to get hired as an "expert" witness for the appeal.

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    9,498
    I always preferred to "shoot" Prima Cornice on days we had new snow and winds. We had a normal, minimal, six-shot route, with three thrown high and three thrown low.
    Jesus........ Think ya used enough Dynamite there Butch?

  21. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    9,746
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkhound Odin View Post
    What a tool. Must be trying to get hired as an "expert" witness for the appeal.
    You can't introduce new evidence in an appeal. I can't see this decision being appealed at all.

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