After you pull the avi airbag trigger...a new game plan?

[1000-oaks]

Historically it's been recommended that you drop your poles, kick off your skis and try to swim to stay as close to the surface as possible in a moving avalanche, maybe even to the side of the slide if you can somehow manage it. (good luck)

Was thinking maybe that advice needs some modification for airbag pack users, since theoretically the airbag will take care of the floating part for you. In open terrain swimming might still be good advice, but anywhere with trees it might be better to ball up as tight as possible and try to protect your head/neck with your arms to minimize blunt trauma, as if you just jumped out of a moving car. Tuck and roll.

The smaller you can make yourself the less chance you'll hit a tree or boulder, and much less likely to have an arm or leg ripped off your torso. Curling into the fetal position won't effect your buoyancy either, as your body still has the same weight per cubic foot of volume.

What say ye? Keep swimming? Or stay curled up tight until you sense the slide is coming to a halt, then make one strong move upward and try to make an air pocket in front of your mouth? (Assuming you're not already on top of the slide, you know which way is up, and your timing is fortunate.)

[Bunion 2020]

Its always good to have a plan and I salute you for thinking about it in advance.

So, you followed your plan and the airbag worked. Great.

You on now on the surface, alive and uninjured, you have no skis or poles and are miles from help.

Now whats your plan?

[1000-oaks]

K, we can add "keep your skis on or not" to the question. As always these spontaneous decisions depend on the perceived size of slide, are there terrain traps/cliffs below, etc.

[Poop~Ghost]

Its always good to have a plan and I salute you for thinking about it in advance.

So, you followed your plan and the airbag worked. Great.

You on now on the surface, alive and uninjured, you have no skis or poles and are miles from help.

Now whats your plan?

To play devil's advocate -

You keep your skis on and the pressure of having a ski on under the avalanching snow pretzels your leg, you have your skis and no knee left, now what's your plan?

I'd rather be uninjured and deal with a long slog out than injury any day of the week.

[Bunion 2020]

Keep your skis, ditch your skis, either one is just fine by me.

My plan is and always has been to avoid getting caught in the first place.

That plan hasn't always worked but as plans go, I like it and will continue to use it.

[nickwm21]

Do as you would do when your floating down a rapid? Feet in front, use your arms to try and direct yourself away from obstacles....

[JoeStrummer]

Keep your skis, ditch your skis, either one is just fine by me.

My plan is and always has been to avoid getting caught in the first place.

That plan hasn't always worked but as plans go, I like it and will continue to use it.

+1. I wish people spent about 1% of the time discussing those plans around here, versus which fucking airbag they want to buy.

[n0t1ap]

Good thread, thinking that most of what's going to happen is going to be because of instinct and survival, but I think naturally:

- just stay alive, and uninjured, no matter what
- try to avoid obstacles (as posted above, I like this the best)

I think we're all trained to ditch the poles, hands shouldn't be in the loops anyways they'll likely be gone no matter what. Not really a choice if you're caught in a shit mix terror of moving snow.

Skis, not really a choice, but hopefully they'd come off, as posted above, hate to have my legs figure 4'd WWF style.

[LocoDuk]

Fighting to keep your airway clear would be pretty high on my list of things I would hope to accomplish in the brief seconds I might have to try something productive. Arms crossed on chest, hands in front of face/mouth ideally...

[camlax]

Its always good to have a plan and I salute you for thinking about it in advance

Now whats your plan?

good point.
well hopefully since you are miles from help, you were smart enough to have packed an emergency/survival supplies in your pack. doesn't help with getting out but your next plan might be to call and wait for help while staying alive

[SDW]

Do as you would do when your floating down a rapid?

I'd try this

[skifishbum]

Its always good to have a plan and I salute you for thinking about it in advance.

So, you followed your plan and the airbag worked. Great.

You on now on the surface, alive and uninjured, you have no skis or poles and are miles from help.

Now whats your plan?

start looking/wishin for the 8lbs worth of gear you pulled out of your pack to put a airbag and canister in?
or et phone home on smart phone?

[icelanticskier]

i think staying calm once you know yer goin down is HUGE. your brain/body works much better when you're calm. i mean if yer goin under, yer goin under. freaking out and being scared can really make things much worse imo.

the things i did when i got dragged under for a coupla football fields+ or so: stayed completely calm as i watched it barreling down at me. outskiing it wasn't an option. let it hit me hard with a big exhale, inhaled as i got pulled down. i then made sure to stay belly down with hands out front kinda like body surfing so i knew which way was up. all of the while i was constantly spitting to keep the snow out that was trying to force itself in. biggest thing was staying calm and relaxed as i figured acting like a jelly fish would allow my limbs just to flow with the forces and terrain.

getting one ski to come off was key as i was then able to thrash and swim my way to the surface and pop up unharmed, completely, not a scratch. kept on skiing. it was a pretty big fucking slide.

kinda tough to plan for something like that. if you spend a lot of time in avy terrain and have a higher than normal risk tolerance, the way you handle potentially stressful situations of any kind is paramount. the mountains don't give a rats ass how nice and humble you are. confidence and toughness rule out there.

rog

[BFD]

i then made sure to stay belly down with hands out front kinda like body surfing so i knew which way was up

REALLY
It appears to me it looks like a big PFD. I think I would be feet first trying to maintain a sitting position. Doing everything I could to stay in an upright position.

[icelanticskier]

REALLY
It appears to me it looks like a big PFD. I think I would be feet first trying to maintain a sitting position. Doing everything I could to stay in an upright position.

i'm not a fan of airbags. my post had more to do with planning/thought process while taking a ride. twas much easier sliding belly 1st face down with ski tips dragging behind me, and easier on the limbs as well.

rog

[BFD]

this is some of the stupidest shit you have posted. You never want your head buried deeper than your feet.

[Z]

i'm not a fan of airbags. my post had more to do with planning/thought process while taking a ride. twas much easier sliding belly 1st face down with ski tips dragging behind me, and easier on the limbs as well.

rog

That seems absurd going head first towards obstacles and having you head be farther downslope, but i've never taken a long ride so you would have more experience. Curious why you are "not a fan of airbags". They are proven and the statistics are very much in their favor...

[SDW]

That seems absurd going head first towards obstacles...

+1

[icelanticskier]

this is some of the stupidest shit you have posted. You never want your head buried deeper than your feet.

oh ya? sez who? you speaking from experience? you tried it? or read it in some book. lots of shit goin down all at once and very quickly. you wouln't wanna fall with crampons on and slide on yer butt feet first. skis downhill and catching edges mighta torn my legs off or at least tore ligs.

not a fan of airbags cuz my goal is to stay outta slides, not go into terrain with the idea that if i get caught i can just pull cord, "just in case"

plus it adds weight

rog

[Z]

not go into terrain with the idea that if i get caught i can just pull cord, "just in case"

That is a user problem, not the technologies problem.

[summit]

The ultimate survival strategy is to not get caught in an avalanche. Since the dawn of skiing and forever more until we have escape rockets (or speed wings): ALWAYS TRY TO SKI OUT AT A 45 DEGREE ANGLE!

ONCE CAUGHT:

The old school method: YELL and ditch everything and try to swim as hard as possible. If you feel the avalanche slowing down, then protect your airway and stick up a hand.

The debate of the late 2000s was whether to swim or simply protect your airway. Statistical analysis certainly shows that those who are unburied quickly dead and unrevivable usually had airways full of snow or no air pocket. Respected avalanche researcher, instructor, patroller, and rescuer Dale Atkins discovered through research that:
1. Most avalanche victims reported inability to feel any progress from swimming
2. By the time people stopped their fruitless swimming because they felt the avalanche slow, it was already too late to make an air pocket.
Dale wrote about this and much more about the dynamnics of an avalanche in motion (and how it explains points 1 & 2) here: http://www.americanavalancheassociat...25_4_LoRes.pdf (Pages 9-11, my unrelated article is on Page 6)

Dale advocates: Protecting your airway as the number one priority:
1. Yell and grab your pack strap with one arm putting your elbow over your face.
2. Put your other arm up in the air.
3. Whitewater swim: feet downhill to protect your head and torso from obstacles.

When presenting this position at CSAW 2006, I asked Dale what about an Avalung user? He said that changes the game some.

With the advent of the Avalung, if you use it properly by skiing with it in, the airway issue is solved. Respected Alaskan guide Theo Meiners advocated using an avalung at all times and utilizing a multistep method of swimming depending where you are in the slide based on the dynamics described in Dale's article above.
http://www.fsavalanche.org/NAC/techP...eltMeiners.pdf



While presenting this method at CSAW 2009, Theo pointed out that these methods were impossible if a victim was fighting to keep the snow out of their mouth and pointed out the importance of an Avalung. He was asked how best to practice these techniques. Theo replied, "swim a lot of Class V whitewater."

SO WHAT ABOUT THE AIRBAG USER?
This is an excellent question. I think that an airbag user should try to ski out like everyone else, yelling and pulling the airbag at the first hint of a slide. If caught, deploy the airbag if not done already, then use Dale's method because using Theo's methods are hard for the unpracticed even if you don't have the added complication of a ginormous airbag. The airbag will do the job of preventing burial and thus giving a surface clue; the victim should be focused on keeping their airway open, preserving an air pocket, and putting feet downhill for extra protection.

[BFD]

rog
the DBT of the Slide Zone

[1000-oaks]

Thanks Summit, good stuff. This post wasn't to suggest that airbag users can take on more risk than those without airbags, but rather how to best utilize the tools available. Pretty dumb to carry a beacon, probe or avi pack and not know how to make the best use of it.

So once caught, an inflated airbag will probably already be above the user and is probably taller than an outstretched arm (and hopefully well above the surface of the snow), so both arms could probably be devoted to trying to keep a clear airway and (secondarily) feet downhill.

Also, if a person is able to reach an arm above the snow, it's just that much more weight not displacing snow to push the rest of the body deeper. It makes sense to do if if not wearing an airbag pack (to possibly eliminate the beacon search), but it could work against you a little if using an airbag.

[summit]

I agree with that, plus the studies indicate that the vast majority of airbag wearing victims are incompletely buried without sticking a hand up!

[Bunion 2020]

oh ya? sez who? you speaking from experience? you tried it? or read it in some book.

Bwhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

Rog, open your mouth and remove your proverbial foot.