2012 Montana Conditions, Stoke and Whatev Thread

[Harry]

Another free campground on your route is the fishing access site about 1/2 mile before Ennis on your left. It’s free until May 15. Walking distance to a micro-distillery for DUI-free debauchery.


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[Harry]

Props to the Big Sky Patrol for voting to unionize. It’s a hard, dangerous job with shitty pay. Good for them, I’m glad to see it happen.


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[Talisman]

Props to the Big Sky Patrol for voting to unionize.

In my experience in industry a union is a symptom of bad management. The management team needs to examine what policies, decisions and leadership gaps created an environment where voting for a union was the best option the teams they lead.

[dtown]

In my experience in industry a union is a symptom of bad management. The management team needs to examine what policies, decisions and leadership gaps created an environment where voting for a union was the best option the teams they lead.

+1...between this and current inflation, it will be interesting to see how much more $$ it is for a family of four to ski a weekend there vs 2 years ago, my assumption would be >75%.


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[Bunion 2020]

In my experience in industry a union is a symptom of bad management. The management team needs to examine what policies, decisions and leadership gaps created an environment where voting for a union was the best option the teams they lead.

Ran into a buddy yesterday who was a 21 year member of that staff. He is quitting. He is also not anti-union. He is kind of disgusted as to how this came about.

His opinion was that this drive was from a few 10+ year patrollers and a vast majority of < 5 year patrollers who think this will get them the wages and stability to be able to afford to live in Big Sky or Bozeman. Average home price in Bzn is now > 700K.

There are some hard feelings amongst the patrol between the pro and anti union factions & I expect to see some big changes and new faces. At a mountain like Big Sky, high turnover is never a good thing.

As for the Patrol management team, they have only been in place 3 seasons and 2 of those seasons were fucked up by Covid.

[swimmy]

Ran into a buddy yesterday who was a 21 year member of that staff. He is quitting. He is also not anti-union.

His opinion was that this drive was from a few 10+ year patrollers and a vast majority of < 5 year patrollers who think this will get them the wages and stability to be able to afford to live in Big Sky or Bozeman.

Why is he quitting?

And I'd be curious to hear how much the ski patrollers are demanding to get paid. What do they think is a fair wage to afford Bozeman or Big Sky?

[Bunion 2020]

Sorry, I was editing, see above.

[swimmy]

Sorry, I was editing, see above.

This question isn't really directed at you but again, curious what these patrollers think is a fair wage? $100k?

You need some serious cheddar to buy into this area right now and maybe ski patrolling ain't the way to get there if that is your goal.

[Bunion 2020]

This question isn't really directed at you but again, curious what these patrollers think is a fair wage? $100k?

You need some serious cheddar to buy into this area right now and maybe ski patrolling ain't the way to get there if that is your goal.

Pretty much 100%.

[SUPERIOR]

Low income Bozemanite ski guide here ... shit, I’d be over the moon for a mountain job with healthcare, a ride share system, and $3k a month for the winter.

I’ve already written off purchasing a home here. I make most of my money in shift work over the spring / summer / fall.

Mountain money is really nothing more than keeping the lights on for most folks.

[total_immortal]

I'm of the opinion that professional ski patrolling is a high risk/high skill profession and should be paid accordingly. I don't think they should be making big bucks, but they should at least have a living wage and access to affordable housing in/near Big Sky. I don't have any insight into what they are currently making, but it should be on par with other high skill (unionized) professions such as a fire fighter or an RN.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

In my experience in industry a union is a symptom of bad management. The management team needs to examine what policies, decisions and leadership gaps created an environment where voting for a union was the best option the teams they lead.

Maybe this deserves it’s own thread.

In my experience as both management and staff, union and non union, the push to unionize is because management is greedy and wants to maintain control. That’s bad management, but it’s not likely in the way you’re posting about.

It’s human nature, the people in charge think they know better and are better than the people they’re charged with managing. The only way for workers to get a fair shake and input into working conditions is to unionize.

I think it would be great if ski patrol had a national union and were independent and contracted with ski areas. The market will decide if ticket prices get too high and how much management is willing to accept a different bottom line. You might think this would affect small independents disproportionately but each area would negotiate their own wage and benefits package. Areas with less or no avalanche mitigation and lower cost of living would be paid less or could opt for an all or mostly volunteer patrol.



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[Harry]

The only way for workers to get a fair shake and input into working conditions is to unionize.

^^^ Quoted for truth. ^^^







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[Bunion 2020]

I don't have any insight into what they are currently making, but it should be on par with other high skill (unionized) professions such as a fire fighter or an RN.

No idea what Big Sky Fire pays and they are either Union or working towards that goal. RNs start at around $ 26-29 in cheaper areas so I would imagine an RN at the Big Sky hospital must be good for $ 33+ and benefits.

Last I heard the starting wage for patrol at Big Sky was 13.00 to 15.00 and 22.00 was around the top end and meant you had to be there 10 years to get that. Most folks at that rate are supervisors, forecasters or avi techs. Only avi techs are able to join the union the rest are management.

As I see it there is a lot of difficulty in getting to where they want to be or you suggest. Housing, Health Insurance and food costs are all through the roof and Boyne has always been known as a "don't like it? There are 10 folks in line for your job, there is the door", at least being organized will nip that. When you add in the seasonality factor it gets much harder.

Glad I stopped when I did.

[yeahman]

There are some hard feelings amongst the patrol between the pro and anti union factions

That's the shitty part of all this. I was in the middle of a union fight once and awkward doesn't begin to describe it. My boss, who was the crew foreman, was leading the movement to decertify us from the union, i.e. get us out. He'd been my mentor for 5 years and I owed him a lot, but I was actually in favor of staying in the union. He kept hinting around the edges with me, trying to figure out how I was going to vote. Meanwhile I kept avoiding the topic, and he never asked directly. He had a bunch of vocal supporters on the crew, and the rancor of this group was ever-present at work.

The matter was further complicated by another guy on the crew, who was actually the son of the union boss, creating more conflict. He had his group of supporters on the crew too. He was kind of a friend of mine, and he kept calling me in the evenings, talking about how great the union was and asking if he could count on my support. I never gave him a definitive answer either.

When the vote finally went down the result was a tie, meaning we were out of the union. (A majority vote was needed to stay in the union.) The ramifications of that vote reverberated for years--too complex to get into here, but let's just say some major changes were made. Some people benefited, most didn't. The hard feelings never really went away though, and a lot of people drifted away as a result. It would suck to see that happen with BS ski patrol.

[Talisman]

I think it would be great if ski patrol had a national union and were independent and contracted with ski areas.

The challenge with your concept is all ski areas are not the same and vary more than the average auto plant or hospital. High angle patrol rescues and avalanche control at Big Sky have no analog at a Midwest or Eastern ski area. The patrol work at Spanish Peaks or most of Andesite is roughly equivalent to the East and typically the current volunteer patrol handles many of the below tree line duties. It will be interesting to see how this new chapter for the BSSP works out for everyone.

[toastybroski]

Heard it through the grapevine. IMBA is doing an assessment at GD and they are having trails planned/built. Sounded like next year most likely but possibly late this year.

[evasive_MT]

They had Gravity Logic booked for last year, but COVID border closure meant that wasn’t happening anytime soon. I would have preferred them to IMBA Trail Solutions, but either way I’m just happy to see GD developing summer operations. We’ll buy MTB passes for sure.

[toastybroski]

Cheap downhill biking that close to home could be trouble!

[MagnificentUnicorn]

The challenge with your concept is all ski areas are not the same and vary more than the average auto plant or hospital. High angle patrol rescues and avalanche control at Big Sky have no analog at a Midwest or Eastern ski area. The patrol work at Spanish Peaks or most of Andesite is roughly equivalent to the East and typically the current volunteer patrol handles many of the below tree line duties. It will be interesting to see how this new chapter for the BSSP works out for everyone.

Thanks, that’s very enlightening, but I thought I addressed that in the post you quoted. If you think acuity of care doesn’t vary between hospitals or even the same hospital for nurses and technicians you’re not very well informed.


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[evasive_MT]

Cheap downhill biking that close to home could be trouble!

There is so much potential in that landscape. Even the two barely-there trails are a lot of fun.

[S_jenks]

There is so much potential in that landscape. Even the two barely-there trails are a lot of fun.

It would seem to be in line with the direction Helena is heading, which is to become the mountain-biking mecca of MT.

Adding in Bel-rock would be a sweet addition, especially if they could spin chairs during the summer.

[Bunion 2020]

Thanks, that’s very enlightening, but I thought I addressed that in the post you quoted. If you think acuity of care doesn’t vary between hospitals or even the same hospital for nurses and technicians you’re not very well informed.


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How many hospitals can utilize volunteer Nurses and Doctors in the US?

[toastybroski]

It would seem to be in line with the direction Helena is heading, which is to become the mountain-biking mecca of MT.

Adding in Bel-rock would be a sweet addition, especially if they could spin chairs during the summer.

Isn't it already the MTB mecca of MT? I have ridden in quite a few places and cannot think of many easily accessed areas that are better in the country. I think it might be the best in a non-resort town other than moab or fruita.

edit: It's also nice to not have to worry about bears

[MagnificentUnicorn]

How many hospitals can utilize volunteer Nurses and Doctors in the US?

That’s a false equivalence, hospitals usually have a large volunteer staff for things that aren’t direct care.

I find the resistance to something like a Patroller’s union baffling. Let’s not change something, we’ve always done it this way.

I’ve been asked why I don’t patrol at my local mountain and my answer is it’s not worth it. I can’t live on the pay alone with kids and a house. I’d still have to keep my hospital job and I wouldn’t have time left for skiing. Now that the kids are gone and my bills less, I’ve thought about it but the pay still sucks and I like skiing.


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