2012 Montana Conditions, Stoke and Whatev Thread

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I've had good luck with KO2s. They could be better on hard-packed snow/ice but that's not an uncommon problem. For my needs, the good far outweighs the bad.

This. I run KO2s on my Tundra. Just put some fresh ones on about 3k miles ago. They wear sorta fast, but unless you have some dedicated truck that only runs from Gateway to BS in the winter or only to BB on pow days you don't want studs. That my take on it. I have toyed with the idea, and then realized I may need to make long road trips on dry pavement in the winter and couldn't have studs unless I owned two vehicles.

[Hodgge]

Changing up the topic a little bit, how necessary are dedicated winter tires/studded tires for winter driving vs a snow rated AT tire like the duratrac or KO2? I'm finding conflicting info everywhere as usual.

I just switched from K02s to General Grabbers - both do great in the snow, but the Generals are much quieter/smoother on road and quite a bit cheaper.

[Hodgge]

A lot of the other "plans" released are either incredibly optimistic or vague (or both). I'm not directly in on any of the planning discussions around here, but the bits I heard from people who are were rather different than what ended up getting released to the public...and I'm about 85% sure it's not that the rumor was wrong at the time, but that circumstances changed since then.

Given the current case rate curve in Montana, I'd be crossing my fingers and probably drinking heavily if I had to release a winter operating plan right now. I'd be willing to cut an organization like Bridger Bowl that has historically done the best it could for the skiers a whole lot of slack.

^^This.

[yeahman]

I run studs in winter, and replace them about every 3 years. Yeah you end up driving on dry pavement sometimes (and some winters a lot of the time), but on those days when you really need them, I think it adds a large measure of security. Obviously I commute from Helena to Big Sky a lot, and since skiing involves storm chasing, well, I've made many white knuckle drives on that route. I figure winter driving in Montana is about the most dangerous thing I do so I go all out and invest in studded tires.

So there you go, more conflicting info! Lol. There is no one-size-fits-all answer to that question. Sometimes it takes a scary experience to make up your mind.

[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

Changing up the topic a little bit, how necessary are dedicated winter tires/studded tires for winter driving vs a snow rated AT tire like the duratrac or KO2? I'm finding conflicting info everywhere as usual.

For us it depends on where we're driving. In town where it it shady and the ice builds up and clearing is hit and miss, the milf mobile (X1 AWD) gets snows, studs preferred. If it's mainly highway and interstate use that gets cleared, sanded and salted - no studs needed.

My Tundra runs Wildpeak A/T 3 (3PMS) year round which work well on snow and ice, but not as good as dedicated snow tires but since it's mainly highway miles or FS roads in 4WD, it's fine. If I'm cutting deep tracks on a FS road, I'm chaining up.

[Harry]

Changing up the topic a little bit, how necessary are dedicated winter tires/studded tires for winter driving vs a snow rated AT tire like the duratrac or KO2? I'm finding conflicting info everywhere as usual.

In my 35 years living in MT I have only been in one wintertime wreck. I was on BFG KO2’s... I always run studless snows now on every vehicle, currently Blizzaks, have had Michelin X-ice in the past.

IMHO good dedicated snow tires are way more important than having AWD/4WD. My little FWD econoshitbox with Blizzaks routinely drives past stuck 4WD with AT/MT tires. Blizzaks come in truck sizes now, all the way up to 33’s.


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[yeahman]

If it's mainly highway and interstate use that gets cleared, sanded and salted - no studs needed.

Man, to me that's wishful thinking, especially if you are storm chasing. Many times I'm on Hwy 12/287 or I-90 early in the morning and they are hardpack snow/ice. Snow tires alone don't do much good on that surface IMO, you need the extra grip of studs. And those roads are when the consequences of an accident are highest, as opposed to in town driving. I-90 in particular can be scary af when it's icy with semis racing by.

[total_immortal]

IMO the problem with the Bridger winter plan is that it raises more questions than answers. Ok, so there will be reservations, what are they capping capacity at? How far in advance do they need to be made? What about families or groups who want to ski together? What about people who have already paid for BSF? Coming out and just saying 'we will have reservations this season' but no further details on how they plan to operate the reservation system leaves many scratching their heads.

Also, I was under the impression that pass holders would have unlimited skiing, but now I can only ski with a reservation? I love Bridger, have skied there for almost 20 years, and I understand the impossible situation they are in, but they could have waited and released a more fleshed out plan.

[Yonder_River]

So there you go, more conflicting info! Lol. There is no one-size-fits-all answer to that question. Sometimes it takes a scary experience to make up your mind.

This. My perspective changed after sliding on black ice near island park many years ago and flipping our rig. We narrowly missed a much uglier outcome, but it changed my perspective on winter driving forever. Better to make a decision based on safety than convenience/ease.

[anotherVTskibum]

Man, to me that's wishful thinking, especially if you are storm chasing. Many times I'm on Hwy 12/287 or I-90 early in the morning and they are hardpack snow/ice. Snow tires alone don't do much good on that surface IMO, you need the extra grip of studs. And those roads are when the consequences of an accident are highest, as opposed to in town driving. I-90 in particular can be scary af when it's icy with semis racing by.

I've driven a fair number of dry miles on I-90 with studded snows. I've also crested a rise coming towards Bozeman from Red Lodge and found the surface suddenly went from dry pavement to wall-to-wall snow and ice. I'll deal with the studs for the dry miles to get a little more grip in the second scenario, particularly in a front-weight-biased, RWD vehicle.

And that's putting aside the RLM road, which does get a bit interesting at times (particularly early morning or earning post-season turns).

I've also spun out on ice I didn't see headed from Bozeman to BB without studs (in a company vehicle with "snow-rated" "all-season" tires). Actual snow tires do get very similar ratings on packed snow to studded snows, but ice—and particularly wet ice—can change that pretty quickly.

Also of note: my wife was skeptical about the need to buy snow tires until I insisted and we put a set of cheap ones on her car. She is not into what I would call "real driving"—i.e. knowing and playing with the edge of traction, or paying attention to and utilizing vehicle dynamics in turning—and she was sold after one winter with real snows. FWIW, I went without studs for her car, as she's less likely to be out as early as I am, and she drives more miles.

So I'm firmly in the "if you don't think snow tires make a significant difference in winter driving, you haven't tried the right tires" camp. I recognize that sometimes the hassle of swapping can be a bigger issue, especially with truck-sized wheels and tires.

[NWFlow]

Given the current case rate curve in Montana, I'd be crossing my fingers and probably drinking heavily if I had to release a winter operating plan right now. I'd be willing to cut an organization like Bridger Bowl that has historically done the best it could for the skiers a whole lot of slack.

Yup. I've doubted bridger on decisions in the past and just feel like if anyone is going to do things right, there's very little in the past to suggest it won't be bridger.

Changing up the topic a little bit, how necessary are dedicated winter tires/studded tires for winter driving vs a snow rated AT tire like the duratrac or KO2? I'm finding conflicting info everywhere as usual.

Guess you probably have 4wd/AWD, but if not just get studs. Even if you do have that, I'd get them if you are posing this question here, it is just so much nicer for shitty roads.

[SUPERIOR]

I mainly drive slow in the winter with “aggressive all terrain tires” and watch folks veer off the road who want to go too fast.

On one of my first drives to Bozeman, I kept getting passed by rigs hauling ass on Hwy 84 from Norris. There were ice channels in the road that locked my tires into a track.

A thick layer of fog was also blanketing the area, which made visibility only a hundred yards or so.

Was I going too slow? I had second thoughts as big old dually trucks ripped by me, some hauling snowmobiles.

Long story short, there was a massive pileup caused by the bad conditions, and I witnessed a small hatchback completely destroyed, while miraculously the driver was unharmed.

I don’t know if tire selection played into the events, but I’m damn sure speed did.

The driver was going way too fast when he came to the red light at Four Corners, and obviously didn’t see it!

PS. I carry chains.

[Bunion 2020]

In 29 years here I have not used studded snow tires on my PUs in the winter.

A few 65 lb sand bags over the rear axle, slow down and don't tailgate.

When I had my fleet of Legacy Subies I did run snows because they were so cheap in 13" sizes. Those cars were bulletproof on shitty roads.

RE: BB, as was said, a lot can still change and now matter what the cap is, it is going to piss people off.

[toastybroski]

Yup. I've doubted bridger on decisions in the past and just feel like if anyone is going to do things right, there's very little in the past to suggest it won't be bridger.



Guess you probably have 4wd/AWD, but if not just get studs. Even if you do have that, I'd get them if you are posing this question here, it is just so much nicer for shitty roads.

Yeah I just picked up a 4runner with shitty factory tires on there. Trying very hard to decide if I should go with the seperate rims/studs vs all in one tire. Seems like studs seems to be the answer since I will be doing a lot of storm chasing. Also, it doesn't help that I live on the side of a mountain and its pretty steep getting up here.

[yeahman]

Yeah I just picked up a 4runner with shitty factory tires on there. Trying very hard to decide if I should go with the seperate rims/studs vs all in one tire. Seems like studs seems to be the answer since I will be doing a lot of storm chasing. Also, it doesn't help that I live on the side of a mountain and its pretty steep getting up here.

I think that's a good choice because you live in Helena. Fate has granted you the incredible good fortune of landing you in the last best city in Montana. The small price you pay for such luck is having to drive a couple hours to world class skiing. Studded snowtires are the way to go if you are a winter road warrior.

[East2West]

I’ve got a 4Runner also and run Falken AT3w in the summer and have a separate set of wheels with studded snows. They are only studded on the outer blocks. Once they are on for the winter they stay on even if the roads are dry roads to Jackson or SLC.

[Talisman]

PS. I carry chains.

Some good advice right there, especially when the rig is off the road a bit and there is no cell signal.

[Djongo Unchained]

I buy new every 2-3 seasons. Sell the old ones with better than decent tread to a skid for $40 apiece. Make back 1/2 the new cost, then find what's on sale in summer fall.

These were $365 delivered.


As much as I'd prefer to not burn off the studs doing long hwy drives, they are the ticket when you can maintain your comfort level particularly when the road goes from dry to snowpacked a lot and shady, curvy roads are the norm.

So I have a vehicle that's damn sticky, keep my traction factor on 11 with the new shoes and try to keep it upright.

I drive pretty fast if the conditions or traffic allows/warrants it.

I too carry chains on road trips. More to show a trooper if need be.

[I Skied Bandini Mountain]

Some good advice right there, especially when the rig is off the road a bit and there is no cell signal.

Add some straps and shackles and a shovel.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I've also crested a rise coming towards Bozeman from Red Lodge and found the surface suddenly went from dry pavement to wall-to-wall snow and ice.

The insane downward shady frozen left hander on Bozeman pass heading westbound with the giant truck turnout right in the apex of the turn....? Nightmare fuel right there.

[Bobcat Sig]

The insane downward shady frozen left hander on Bozeman pass heading westbound with the giant truck turnout right in the apex of the turn....? Nightmare fuel right there.

No way, that truck turn-out is your run-off area

[jeremiahyawnson]

A bit vague??? There is no plan!! No one is saying their lives depend on it, there is just speculation and criticism. What's wrong with that? Yeah it's just just skiing, but look at the thread we are in and the business we are discussing.

Sheesh, they were pretty clear that their deadline to issue a plan was early Nov. Obviously folks wanted some communication before the end of early-bird pricing so this is what was put out.

Obviously they don't know how many people they can support because they've never done this before. Rather than publicize some guesstimated number (without actually knowing if they can handle it) they're going to start low (i.e. the whole 'not hoping for a 20" opener' line) and increase the numbers until they feel they have met the capacity of their personnel and facilities. Regardless of what number they pick haters gon hate so they might as well keep it hush.

I'm betting that toilet capacity could be a bottleneck, and I hope all the members of the Bridger 'BOWL PATROL' get some love this year for running 'control routes' all day long.

Asking folks to use their cars as a lodge will mean way more peeing on the mountain (hopefully less strain on the facilities). Maybe they could offer a "Depends" day pass for folks w/o a reservation .

I think using the historical %passholders vs %ticket break down naturally benefits pass holders on pow days since the 'average historical day' will not be a powder day. While still providing an opportunity for non-pass holders to still get a ski-day in, especially since more folks might not be getting a full pass this year (family ski days with a 1 yr old seem to be out of the cards for us).

I agree that there is a lot that was not said about the specifics of the reservation system (probably because they're still trying to program it to not suck). Here's a fun list of things that I'm glad I don't have to decide on:
Opportunities to reserve a morning weekday vs an afternoon weekday?
Penalties for not cancelling before a no-show?
How to limit increased pass sharing w/ facemasks?
Trunk rides up the mountain?
Maximum group size in one reservation?
Weighted selection pools for groups that don't get selected on chosen days?
Priority selections vs chronological?
Will they allow rich folks to buy multiple season passes to double/triple their chances?
Employee exemptions?
Reservation wait list, i.e. on call for day of cancelations?

Hoping they get some solid security/encryption going for whatever system they use to select reservations.

Also hoping that mountain personnel can stay healthy while crammed into small boxes with eachother.

[total_immortal]

Obviously they don't know how many people they can support because they've never done this before. Rather than publicize some guesstimated number (without actually knowing if they can handle it) they're going to start low (i.e. the whole 'not hoping for a 20" opener' line) and increase the numbers until they feel they have met the capacity of their personnel and facilities.

I'm betting that toilet capacity could be a bottleneck, and I hope all the members of the Bridger 'BOWL PATROL' get some love this year for running 'control routes' all day long.

I generally agree with most of your post except these two lines. Bridger *should* know their operating capacity during a normal season, so they could say that they plan to open at 25% capacity and ramp up to 75% if things go smoothly. A little insight into how hard it will be to get a reservation would help a lot of people with their decision.

I don't think toilet capacity is going to be the bottleneck (most everyone already pees on the mountain), I think managing the lift lines will be the bottleneck. The Bridger lift line doesn't have a ton of space to expand and Schlasman's will be hard to manage on busier days once the line extends out of the mazes (maybe a thing of the past?) . Schlasman's unloading area is pretty tight as well and is already a junk show on busy days.

Another interesting aspect will be enforcement for the entitled assholes who show up without a reservation and try and sneak/demand a lift ride. I'm not sure the lifties will want to deal with some of the shenanigans that will inevitably happen.

ETA: Whitefish sold a record number of season passes this year so I'm not sure we can count on fewer pass holders this season...https://www.kbzk.com/news/local-news...son-pass-sales

[Bunion 2020]

From what I have been told when you pull up to the start of parking (1st left at the bottom of the lots) you will be required to show your and all vehicle riders "reservation".

No proof, you may leave now, thank you and come back when you have a reservation.

I do not envy the parking folks having to deal with that.

[Bobcat Sig]

....

I do not envy the parking folks having to deal with that.

What's the over/under on a parking lot attendant getting the same treatment that the widow ticket person got a few years ago when some tourist-beater bitched them out for requiring a beacon to Slushman's?