2012 Montana Conditions, Stoke and Whatev Thread

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I was one of those kooks who skied without poles 10+ years ago, so skiing with one pole is fine. I hate selfies as much as the next guy, but I can never get any of my friends to take a decent picture so I have resorted to doing it this way most of the time. Only for one run first thing in the AM when it's legit deep and then the camera goes away.

[swimmy]

Family day today. Not as deep as Showdown or as cool as the Bridger crew but still stoked we got out.











No reservation tomorrow

[usdatele]

I was one of those kooks who skied without poles 10+ years ago, so skiing with one pole is fine. I hate selfies as much as the next guy, but I can never get any of my friends to take a decent picture so I have resorted to doing it this way most of the time. Only for one run first thing in the AM when it's legit deep and then the camera goes away.

Nopolean generation! Ya, anytime i have a gobaby on, I try n make damn sure its off my head and securely stowed when I get back to the bottom of the lift. Psyched u guys got the showdown goods!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[toastybroski]

I was one of those kooks who skied without poles 10+ years ago, so skiing with one pole is fine. I hate selfies as much as the next guy, but I can never get any of my friends to take a decent picture so I have resorted to doing it this way most of the time. Only for one run first thing in the AM when it's legit deep and then the camera goes away.

That's one of the bummers of skiing alone. It's hard to share the stoke. Hopefully random people don't mind getting some good shots.

[SUPERIOR]

Just got back from the Montana / Idaho border today, where BC things were scouted and mellow pow laps were skied... inbounds at 2pm even.

Keep this treasure close to your hearts, Montana.

[Talisman]

That's one of the bummers of skiing alone. It's hard to share the stoke.

Skiing alone isn't a bummer when skiing inbounds for some of us. Savoring the inner stoke works.

[toastybroski]

Skiing alone isn't a bummer when skiing inbounds for some of us. Savoring the inner stoke works.

I enjoy skiing alone. Just sometimes worry about getting treewelled

[swimmy]

That's one of the bummers of skiing alone. It's hard to share the stoke. Hopefully random people don't mind getting some good shots.

For several years I've enjoyed taking pictures of random folks skiing. Capturing and sharing their stoke is fun and I've actually met some pretty cool people doing this.

My wife thinks it is weird though

[Bunion 2020]

Tell her you are just stealing a little bit of their soul.

Just back from the still kind of thin Sky. Decent skiing, crowds are much more tolerable.

I went around to Dakota to have a look and the Liberty Bowl area looked damn good, 10"+ blown in last night, ran into a patrol buddy who confirmed that the skiing off the south side was good. Still a lot of sharks that are lurking just under the 2" new from last night.

Sunny day and fresh snow=worth the trip.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I'm going to CO for several days for work....it will probably snow again up here.

[Bunion 2020]

Forest Service considering heli-skiing operation in the Centennial Mountains


Local environmental groups are worried a proposed helicopter ski operation in the Centennial Mountains could put wildlife and people at risk, but officials said permitting is still in its early stages.

Elizabeth Davy, Ashland/Island Park district ranger for the Caribou-Targhee National Forest, said a company submitted a draft application to explore heli-skiing in the Centennial Mountains, which straddle the Montana-Idaho border west of Yellowstone National Park. Davy was considering two permits, but she plans to issue a research permit.

A research permit would allow a heli-ski company to collect information about the weather and snowpack on Idaho’s Sawtell and Reas peaks. It would authorize one to two flyovers via fixed-wing aircraft and five days of snowmobile trips across different slopes.

A height limit would be enforced during the flights to prevent aircraft from disturbing wildlife. No heli-skiing would be authorized.

The company had proposed researching six different areas for heli-skiing potential, but Davy said she ruled out three because they fell within known wolverine denning territories.

Davy also considered issuing a temporary special use permit that would have authorized some heli-skiing during the month of February. However, she said she won’t issue this permit because of new information about the project’s potential impacts on grizzly bears.

“Right now, with the change in administration, we are being asked to slow down on any kinds of decisions,” she said. “There are too many unknowns.”

The continental divide splits Montana and Idaho as it runs east to west along the range, southwest of Ennis.

On the Idaho side of the divide lies the Caribou-Targhee National Forest, where few special land designations exist and recreation flourishes.

On the Montana side of the divide lies the Beaverhead-Deerlodge National Forest and a Bureau of Land Management wilderness study area. Here, a suite of special designations, including a recommended wilderness area and a national wildlife refuge, limit opportunities for recreation.

The areas in Idaho targeted for heli-skiing surround Montana on three sides. That means activities in Idaho would impact “the wildlife refuge, the BLM wilderness study area and the Forest Service recommended wilderness area,” according to Hilary Eisen, policy director for Winter Wildlands Alliance.

Eisen said there is already a longstanding conflict between snowmobile management and wilderness management on the Montana side of the divide, so heli-skiing “wouldn’t be a good addition to the mix.” She added that the company applying for a permit is brand new, which means it has no track record.

The company — Rocky Mountain Heli — was first registered on Dec. 7, according to the Montana Secretary of State’s website.

Eisen and Davy said a different heli-ski company affiliated with the Yellowstone Club — a private, upscale residential club west of Big Sky — originally submitted an application for a heli-ski permit.

But the club has decided against proceeding and has “no involvement” in the project, according to a club spokesperson.

Eisen said heli-skiing is a high-risk activity not only for clients, but for snowmobilers and skiers below. She said starting an operation in the area would be a bad idea, especially in since the range is particularly prone to avalanches.

“You don’t generally see heli-skiing occurring in the same places where you have a bunch of other people recreating,” she said. “It’s not always easy to tell from the air if there are people below you, especially in complex terrain.”

The terrain in the Centennials is extremely complex, said Sam Hansen, owner and lead guide at Hellroaring Powder Guides, a backcountry skiing service on the Montana side of the range. It would be difficult for someone being dropped off from above to know where they’d end up, he said.

Hansen said adding an “unprecedented user group” into an already-diverse mix of user groups could result in conflict. Helicopter skiing might also spill into unplanned areas, which could be dangerous since the mountain range’s snowpack is notoriously temperamental, according to Hansen.

The range’s intermittent snowfall combined with its rapidly-fluctuating temperatures often create weak layers in the snowpack.

“People should be able to enjoy that area, but it’s an area where if you’re not careful, it has injured people in the past and it could very well do so again,” he said.

Emily Cleveland, senior field director for the Montana Wilderness Association, said even though heli-skiing wouldn’t occur within any specially-designated land in Montana, it could still threaten the wilderness character there.

“The Centennials are sort of this unique east-west mountain range that connects the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem over to the Salmon-Selway Ecosystem,” she said. “It’s a really important linkage area for connectivity. It’s also an important area for grizzly bears and wolverines.”

Davy said that if she accepts Rocky Mountain Heli’s application, it would fall back to the company to determine whether any heli-ski operation in the range would be viable. Then, a full public participation process and environmental analysis would occur.

“We’re in the very beginnings of a long special use process,” she said.

Davy said she won’t allow any explosives to be used for avalanche control. Nor will she allow any trees to be cut for helicopter landing and pick-up spots. She added that since the permit is for use of Forest Service land, any heli-skiing would have to be open to the general public.

“Sometimes helicopter skiing is a bucket list thing,” she said. “People might save for years to be able to go helicopter skiing in a pristine area.”

IMO in that terrain and climate regime it will not be feasible.

[406]

Yeah, seems like almost any heli op in MT would also need to have permit for avalanche control or it would be really boring terrain most years. Centennials seem extra challenging.

[SUPERIOR]

^^ I help the owner of the Hellroaring Hut as an occasional guide, and have skied in the area a bit during different winter months, and have horse-packed in there for a summer camping trip.

Of the many areas in Montana I have hiked and camped, this place truly feels special, is the ultimate source of the Missouri River, and has many moose and bear.

Unfortunately, there are a ton of recreationists from the Idaho side who are running four wheelers and snowmobiles all over the damn place too. Adding a helicopter to the mix would be interesting, as the high peaks are quite spectacular, but ultimately just another scar on the landscape.

I can’t pretend I’m not a fan of heli skiing, as I have worked with operations in the past, but I’m quite unsure of how much use the YC would actually get out of this zone.

In the spring, there are sometimes mobs of snowmobilers hi-marking Mount Jefferson, and they are constantly trespassing on wilderness boundaries. Not a great “exclusive zone” lol.

I know the owner is an occasional poster on here, so maybe he will make a few additional comments.

[Bunion 2020]

Not the Y/C group. Last I heard they were working on a Crazy Mountains scheme.

[idahospud]

Not the Y/C group. Last I heard they were working on a Crazy Mountains scheme.

Call me crazy, but I don't necessarily take the YC at face value when they say they're doing or not doing something.

[SUPERIOR]

Call me crazy, but I don't necessarily take the YC at face value when they say they're doing or not doing something.

The way I understand it, the Yellowstone Club (or members thereof) has bank rolled this entity, and hopes to operate in both the Crazies and Centennials.

[idahospud]

The way I understand it, the Yellowstone Club (or members thereof) has bank rolled this entity, and hopes to operate in both the Crazies and Centennials.

That's pretty much what I thought might be the case. Gives the YC proper some distance from the entity and the plausible deniability of "it isn't us!"

[Bunion 2020]

Jackson, Wyoming
Wednesday, January 20, 2021

Private club's heli-skiing plan for Caribou-Targhee forest sputters forward


Land managers along the west side of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem are weighing a proposal to open parts of the Centennial Mountains so members of the Yellowstone Club can go backcountry skiing with helicopters.

An application being considered by the Caribou-Targhee National Forest is still in its earliest stages, said Ashton/Island Park District Ranger Liz Davy. If the applicant does get the tentative nod this winter, it will only be to vet and photograph prospective routes and landing pads from a fixed-wing aircraft and to explore the area via snowmobile.

“I may give a permit for them to do research this year, but that research would not involve helicopters,” Davy told the Jackson Hole Daily. “If I do accept an application, there will be a full-blown environmental analysis, public participation and all that kind of stuff — and we will ask the proponent to pay for it.”

The project proponent is dubbed “Rocky Mountain Heli,” which is a spinoff of sorts of the Yellowstone Club. That private, luxury community — which houses its own exclusive in-bounds ski area in Montana — initially approached the national forest more directly, but was rebuffed.

“They formed a separate entity to apply for this permit, because they were exclusive to Yellowstone Club,” Davy said. “We don’t believe that special use permits should only be exclusive. They should be at least offered to the general public and not for exclusive members.”

A call to the Yellowstone Club on Monday was not returned by press time. Located in Montana’s Madison County adjacent to Big Sky, the club is situated about 50 miles northeast of the heart of the Centennials, a range that forms the boundary between the states of Idaho and Montana. The Centennials are wild, remote country along the Continental Divide that reach to the west of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, and they’re seen as a crucial habitat linkage to central Idaho’s wilderness complex.

Already, much of the Yellowstone Club’s plans have been derailed by the presence of wolverines, an exceedingly rare and large alpine-dwelling cousin of the weasel that inhabits the area.

“They submitted five or six areas, and we nicked those down to two,” Davy said, “because we knew that there are wolverine dens there, and there are active female territories.”

The two remaining zones that Rocky Mountain Heli applied for and are being carried forward sprawl out around Sawtell Peak and Reas Peak. Both sites see frequent snowmobile use and are destinations for sledders pushing off from the Island Park, Idaho, area.

“I did mention that to the helicopter proponent: ‘How are you going to deal with snowmobiles that may have tracked up your slopes?’ ” Davy said. “They, of course, were like, ‘Well, you give us exclusive use.’ ”

The district ranger informed them that it didn’t work that way.

There’s also competition from backcountry skiers, both private and commercial. Hellroaring Powder Guides has a backcounty skiing yurt on the Montana side of the east-to-west mountain range. Although it’s across state lines and within the Centennial Mountains Wilderness Study Area, the yurt is also a half-mile away from one of the proposed heli-skiing zones, said owner Sam Hansen.

“Obviously, it’s not great for my business to have helicopters flying all over,” Hansen said, “because people are coming to my hut to stay in a wilderness study area and enjoy those wilderness characteristics.”

Closer to Jackson Hole around the turn of the century, there was a prolonged fight over heli-skiing in the Palisades Wilderness Study Area, on the Bridger-Teton National Forest south of Teton Pass. A judge found that increasing heli-skiing use above levels that occurred prior to 1984’s Wyoming Wilderness Act violated that law. The issue was also hotly charged and heavily politicized. In 2018, U.S. Rep. Liz Cheney introduced a bill that fizzled, but the legislation proposed going over the U.S. Forest Service’s head to increase Palisades heli-skiing twentyfold.

“Obviously, helicopter skiing across the western United States is extremely controversial,” Caribou-Targhee’s Davy said.

Already, comments about the plans have been piling in, she said. The Winter Wildlands Alliance, a backcountry skiing advocacy group, has alerted its membership to the proposal, encouraging them to help keep helicopters out of the Centennials.

Wilson resident and Centennial Mountains backcountry ski guide Josh Carr is among those who have taken the time to weigh in. He worries that the addition of helicopters would dramatically alter an experience he values.

“People go there looking for a little more serenity,” Carr said. “I personally I feel like I’m getting away from it all — and I live in the mountains.”

“These are some of the last mountains that feel wild,” he said, “and it would definitely take that away.”

Although the deadline for public comments on the 2021 heli-skiing “research permit” has technically passed, Davy says that she’s still interested in what people have to say. At this stage in the process, she’s seeking information about wildlife, other resources and human uses in the proposed permit areas more so than people’s thoughts on the merits of heli-skiing.

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/...3a36f25cf.html

[Bunion 2020]

That's pretty much what I thought might be the case. Gives the YC proper some distance from the entity and the plausible deniability of "it isn't us!"

While I tend to agree, keep in mind that Y/C member does not mean Y/C operation.

[total_immortal]

The way I understand it, the Yellowstone Club (or members thereof) has bank rolled this entity, and hopes to operate in both the Crazies and Centennials.

Edit: As Bunion points out below I was wrong. I was confusing operators.

[Bunion 2020]

^^^ RMR and RMH are the same?

https://rockymountainrotors.com/

Not certain of that.

BTW, there are several Y/C members who own their own Birds and are qualified rotor pilots.

[total_immortal]

^^^ RMR and RMH are the same?

https://rockymountainrotors.com/

Not certain of that.

BTW, there are several Y/C members who own their own Birds and are qualified rotor pilots.

Oops, I stand corrected. I didn't read the article close enough. Thanks for pointing that out Bunion.

[idahospud]

I've met the owner of RMH and this isn't true. His bread and butter is contract helicopter operations (think strategic logging, construction, wildland firefighting) and he owns a pretty large fleet of helicopters. He does most of the heli shuttling for the YC which is why he gets associated with them. He's an interesting guy and has been pretty generous on some SAR operations I've worked on.

Not that I agree with him trying to start a heli-skiing op. Considering the snowpack and the fact you can snowmobile to the summit of any mountains in that area from the Idaho side, I just don't see this as a smart business decision. Imagine dropping a chunk of change to get dropped on top of Mt Jefferson only to find a bunch of slednecks up there and everything already tracked out by highmarks.

I think you're confusing RMR and RMH. RMH was formed last month, RMR does the things that you've just described.

edit: disregard, looks like we posted at the same time.

[Bunion 2020]

Its all just good clean conjecture. No worries.

[toast2266]

Putting aside environmental, snowpack, and user conflict concerns, aren't the centennials fairly small? I haven't been in there in the winter, but it seems like most of the skiable slopes are around 1500 ft. vert, with a few that are maybe a smidge over 2000. That might be fine for a private playground for some Y/C folks, but I can't imagine much of the broader heli-skiing public is going to bother with that. Doesn't seem like a viable operation.