Binding Freedom and turntables, questions (with pics!)

[Skirotica]

I'm putting inserts into a pair of skis for Look P18s. older ones and I went with the Classic turntable/FKS set. But I'm not sure that was quite right. As first pics show, I've got the screws arranged as best I can figure.



I'm pretty sure the heel screws are all set. Have the longer buttonhead in the rear with the shorter in the front.


But on the toe, I'm becoming more and more convinced that I don't have the right screws.

I think this particular model should be using 4 small head m5 screws instead of 2 small head and 2 flathead m5. The flat heads don't sink flush with the binding base.
This isn't the best imagery but it does show several screws in their seats, which I hope is helpful.



I took a photo of a new FKS for comparison, and I'm pretty sure that this toe definitely needs two small head M5s especially given how deep the seat is in the front.


Is the flat head the wrong fit? Can you tell from pics?
I probably need to get more inserts anyway so I grabbing a couple more screws won't be a problem. But I want to get things figured out before I make a move.

[wwwllw]

I have the same problem. My bindings are the p18 wides all black, which appear like they must be the same vintage. Anxious to here the answer and get these mounted up correctly.

[alTAos]

They are both tapered castings, but the older bindings have a very small diameter for the head. The typical flat m5 will not fit in. I have used just a standard m5 and not worried that the square shoulder rests on a tapered casting...not ideal, but it has worked well so far.

[jondrums]

hey guys,
its really hard to see from the pictures you posted, but I have a pair of these exact bindings. Mind you that there may have been variations through the years, so mine could be different.

I use 14mm smallheads in the front two toe holes and 16mm flatheads in the rear two toe holes. Are you saying that you think that the 14mm smallheads fit better in the rear position?

[Skirotica]

Jon,

It looked like the smallheads fit quite well in the rear. That's at least where I assumed they'd go but I could've been completely wrong. I'm not going ot be able to get back tothe skis for a while to verify, but I actually just assumed the small heads were for the rear since this si where the boot sole sits and I would want something to sit as flush as possible. But I never tried them the other way. Mind you, the epoxy is still setting on these as I type this, so I haven't skied any combination.
Hmmmm. And I just looked again at my newer FKS and see exactly that the factory uses a wider flange flathead in the back. Guess I was just really tunneled in my thinking yesterday!
When I get home I'll try your combo and see if that works better.

[wwwllw]

The 14mm small heads are too long for the front toe holes. The 16mm flat heads are too long for the rear toe holes. I have the rears properly mounted just as skirotica did above. I don't think it matters if the heads stick up on the rear toe holes because the boot doesn't make contact at that part of the binding. So for my bindings, the rear 8 binding screws were fine, but the front 8 binding screws were all too long.

[jondrums]

so what you're saying is that the correct screws might be
M5x14 Flatheads for the toe rears
M5x12 Smallheads for the toe fronts

send me a pm, and I'll try to set you guys up with the right screws.

[Skirotica]

I went back and did a more thorough examination of my bindings and figured out what fits. I did this AFTER ordering more screws instead of before cause I like to spend money.

For the glossy blue Look Race P18s that I've got, it's 4 12mm smallheads in the toes. ALL of the holes are shaped for small heads and they are all the same depth. I put 14s in and they didn't lock the binding down. I could actually move it up down and spin it around with a screw tightened all the way down. But with a 12, I get a tight fit.

The blue looks I've got are very shallow in the binding plate and the screw holes are to allow for a deep headed factory screw.

[auvgeek]

^^ Great info, I just bought the same vintage. Did you use the FKS paper template? I'm finding the Look Pivot/Rossi Axial one doesn't work for this vintage of pivots, but we're gonna try the FKS one next. Just want to confirm before I drill my new sticks.

[Angel]

I can confirm on the new vintage of FKS/Pivot, you will/can use the same screws on all four toe holes and the first two heel holes. You need longer screws for the back two heel holes as the housing sits higher and has more material. This makes sense as all wood screw bindings for the toe holes and first two heel holes are the same. I'll measure sometime this week to confirm sizes.

Different head patterns did not matter to sit flush in housing. Only screw length size.

[Skirotica]

^^ Great info, I just bought the same vintage. Did you use the FKS paper template? I'm finding the Look Pivot/Rossi Axial one doesn't work for this vintage of pivots, but we're gonna try the FKS one next. Just want to confirm before I drill my new sticks.

I did not use the template. I had simply to redrill existing holes. This wasn't a new mount. But this is very interesting. I never thought the templates might not line up. I can tell you this, I have two sets of skis - one with the vintage look ,the other with last year's FKS. I'll try a swap and see if things line up.

[Skirotica]

I can confirm on the new vintage of FKS/Pivot, you will/can use the same screws on all four toe holes and the first two heel holes. You need longer screws for the back two heel holes as the housing sits higher and has more material. This makes sense as all wood screw bindings for the toe holes and first two heel holes are the same. I'll measure sometime this week to confirm sizes.

Different head patterns did not matter to sit flush in housing. Only screw length size.

I like the numbers Jondrums put in his shared google document/spreadsheet. It features 4 flatheads at 18mm. I put 14 and 16s in and they connect, but certainly don't have much for thread. The 14s actually barely thread into the inserts. the 16s are OK, but I don't think I'll ski them till I get some 18s. Flat heads doo work in the heels too, but I am pretty happy with using the buttonheads back there.

on the heels: the buttonheads are compatible between my vintage Look and reissue FKS140s

[Angel]

I can confirm on the new vintage of FKS/Pivot, you will/can use the same screws on all four toe holes and the first two heel holes. You need longer screws for the back two heel holes as the housing sits higher and has more material. This makes sense as all wood screw bindings for the toe holes and first two heel holes are the same. I'll measure sometime this week to confirm sizes.

Different head patterns did not matter to sit flush in housing. Only screw length size.

Okay, I need to partly retract this statement. After getting in the FKS 140, there are some differences in screw sizes. I have only used the 18s/180s, and now realize the toe housing/screw length is different for the 14s/140s. The all metal toepiece on the 18s/180s uses the exact same screws on all holes. This is also the same screw on the first two holes of the heel piece. As the heel piece is the same for both models there is no issues there.

Where things get interesting is on the 14s/140s toe piece. Because the housing is higher, longer screws are needed for the toepiece. Also, seperate types of heads need to be used to sit it flush with the different holes. The slanting downward head pattern is needed for the second set of screws (rear screws) in the toe piece.

Screws for FKS 140 (FT, RT, FH, RH) Height between 14s/140s and 18s/180s

140 Front Toe, Rear Toe and 18/180 Toes 18s/180s toe screws and front heel screws

Longest screws are the Rear Heal screws. It looks like the only screws that will not take a button head are the Rear Toe Screws on the FKS 140s/Pivot 14s.

I haven't had a chance to measure my M5 screws on my current mount. I will measure those, but it looks like Skirotica may have those down with M5 18mm screws and 16mm screws dependent on head size. I'll post up more measurements/pics after further fiddling.

[Angel]

Measured my screws. I'm using 10mm threads in the toe piece screws and the first two heel screws. I am using 16mm buttonhead in the rear two heel screws. I ordered the FKS reissue kit from Jon and had to modify the screw set to fit. I think it is more designed towards the 14s/140. Technically, right now I am using 14mm flathead and smallheads along with the 10mm buttonhead, but the thread depth is the same on each. I had to grind down the flatheads to get a fit. I would use 10mm buttonhead for all toe screws and the first two heel screw. I would use the 16mm buttonhead for the rear two heel screws. There is no need for smallhead or flathead screws with the 18s/180s, unlike with the 14s/140s. Will post pics later.

[Angel]

Pics - The thread length on the first 3 screws is the same. I had to modify a little from what I got from Jon. These are screws for the FKS 180/Pivot 18.

[la_grave]

This is quite messy. I have last years FKS140 and according to Binding Freedom's spreadsheet I need four screws of four different kinds with three different kinds of heads, among them two variants of buttonhead. However, when I look at the binding there are no buttonhead screws at all.

Screw head types





Rear heel - looks like type A above


Front heel - looks like type A above


Rear toe - looks like type E above


Front toe - looks like type A above


Also, the screw lengths. Two of the screws are specified to be 18 mm but it is hard to find M5 in that length. However, 16 and 20 mm are readily available, e.g., here. Is 18 necessary or can I go with 16 or 20?

[la_grave]

What makes it even more messy is that on the FKS140 2012/2013 the screw setup has changed. The heel part looks the same (?) but the toe part is completely different:

[bern43]

I just went with what was listed on binding freedom's website and it worked fine.

[la_grave]

I just went with what was listed on binding freedom's website and it worked fine.

Buttonhead screws?

But as you can see on my photos, this years and last years FKS140 has completely different toe pieces with screws of different length and type and none of them are buttonheaded.

[bern43]

Buttonhead screws?

But as you can see on my photos, this years and last years FKS140 has completely different toe pieces with screws of different length and type.

Yup, bottonhead screws. They should work, the only question is the length.