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  1. #2751
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    I'm curious about others' thoughts.

    I always use a 3.6 along with a tap. I've never had trouble tapping into a titanal top layer.

    I wonder if 3.6 + tapping would rip up a carbon fiber sheet? I doubt it, but wonder if anyone has insight.

    ... Thom



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  2. #2752
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    I do the same use a 3.6 and tap. Has worked with titanal and did not see volcanoes from it.
    Have also done the same with DPS Pures a few times. Drill with 3.6, start tap then about 6 half turns, epoxy.

  3. #2753
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    I'm curious about others' thoughts.

    I always use a 3.6 along with a tap. I've never had trouble tapping into a titanal top layer.

    I wonder if 3.6 + tapping would rip up a carbon fiber sheet? I doubt it, but wonder if anyone has insight.

    ... Thom



    Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk
    Measure the shank of a screw. It should be around 4.1mm. The ideal bit for carbon, metal/titanal is 4.1mm so the screw's shank slides through the top sheet without crushing the edges. The threads follow the tapping. If you don't, the end of the world will come crashing down upon you.....or not.
    Best regards, Terry
    (Direct Contact is best vs PMs)

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  4. #2754
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    Quote Originally Posted by teledad View Post
    Same reason as for metal, drilling into a non-compressible material (carbon in this case) so you want the hole to better match the screw diameter.
    That makes perfect sense, thanks!

  5. #2755
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    So thinking of remounting a pair of Fatypus DSenders with the same bindings I took off to put on a pair of volkl 100Eight skis. The Volkls are now gone and so want to revive the DSenders to see if I still want to keep them as they're still in good shape. Is it advisable to use the same holes? Or do I need to re-drill? It's the same binding and the same BSL that I had before.
    The K-12 dude. You make a gnarly run like that and girls will get sterile just looking at you - Charles De Mar

  6. #2756
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrgha View Post
    I'm about to mount up some DPS Lotus 124 Tour1's with G3 Zed's for my GF, and I noticed DPS recommends a 4.1mm drillbit. I'm used to using that on skis with metal in them, and I can't imagine these ridiculously light things have any of that. Any ideas why?
    Ended up preddi gudd. Mounted on the line. Exactly 2000 grams with 115 mm brakes, which fit just about perfectly.

    She was worried they'd be a tad long, but they only measure 176 cm.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7. #2757
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    Anybody have input on my re-use previous holes with same binding question?
    The K-12 dude. You make a gnarly run like that and girls will get sterile just looking at you - Charles De Mar

  8. #2758
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheK12 View Post
    Anybody have input on my re-use previous holes with same binding question?
    Fine if the holes are in good shape. Just make sure to not screw up the threads when starting them in. Use some GFlex epoxy if you want to beef 'em up.

  9. #2759
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    Fine if the holes are in good shape. Just make sure to not screw up the threads when starting them in. Use some GFlex epoxy if you want to beef 'em up.
    Thanks for the help!!!
    The K-12 dude. You make a gnarly run like that and girls will get sterile just looking at you - Charles De Mar

  10. #2760
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    I'm curious about others' thoughts.

    I always use a 3.6 along with a tap. I've never had trouble tapping into a titanal top layer.

    I wonder if 3.6 + tapping would rip up a carbon fiber sheet? I doubt it, but wonder if anyone has insight.
    Bumping this to add to what Alpinord said. I'd use the 4.1

    I don't have it handy, but there was a pullout-strength chart floating around here years ago, and from that perspective you could drill every ski with a 4.1 then run a tap, and it would be just as strong or stronger than a 3.5 or 3.6

    The reason is that those smaller bits are just pilot holes (therefore undersized), and driving the binding screws in weakens the surrounding core due to expansion. That's actually why the rule of thumb is to space new holes 1 cm from other mounts, because the wood has been compromised. Since the bigger bit matches the screw diameter better the wood is disturbed less, and the same goes for metal and carbon.

  11. #2761
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    Quote Originally Posted by pisteoff View Post
    Bumping this to add to what Alpinord said. I'd use the 4.1

    I don't have it handy, but there was a pullout-strength chart floating around here years ago, and from that perspective you could drill every ski with a 4.1 then run a tap, and it would be just as strong or stronger than a 3.5 or 3.6

    The reason is that those smaller bits are just pilot holes (therefore undersized), and driving the binding screws in weakens the surrounding core due to expansion. That's actually why the rule of thumb is to space new holes 1 cm from other mounts, because the wood has been compromised. Since the bigger bit matches the screw diameter better the wood is disturbed less, and the same goes for metal and carbon.
    I'm not sure I get these comments. Of course, you don't want to drill into Titanal/carbon fiber with a 3.6 and directly run a screw into it without a tap. Even with a 4.1 bit a tap is advised.

    BTW, the tap I'm referencing is a standard 12AB ski tap - used for all ski materials.

    My question centered on whether running a tap into a carbon fiber topped ski drilled with a 3.6 will rip or shred the fiber in ways that drilling with a 4.1 won't. My only experience of using an "undersized" bit with tap is into metal and it's been fine.

    ... Thom
    Last edited by galibier_numero_un; 02-06-2019 at 10:09 PM.
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  12. #2762
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    I just run a 4.1 / 3.6 step bit for everything any more. It doesn't hurt if there isn't a metal/carbon layer and you're good if there is.

  13. #2763
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    ^^^ I like that.

    My point was that wood gives and carbon doesn't.

    Obviously not a big deal either way, just that it would be a little cleaner using the bigger bit.

  14. #2764
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    I'm not sure I get these comments. Of course, you don't want to drill into Titanal/carbon fiber with a 3.6 and directly run a screw into it without a tap. Even with a 4.1 bit a tap is advised.

    BTW, the tap I'm referencing is a standard 12AB ski tap - used for all ski materials.

    My question centered on whether running a tap into a carbon fiber topped ski drilled with a 3.6 will rip or shred the fiber in ways that drilling with a 4.1 won't. My only experience of using an "undersized" bit with tap is into metal and it's been fine.

    ... Thom
    This is all about splitting hairs. Often good enough is good enough. But like any 'craft', best practices don't hurt and might help doing a better job. They're your skis and your ass and I would expect low probability of a major problem unless you end up with spinners.

    Most skis should indicate what diameter is recommended for that ski. I would think that driving a 4.1mm shanked screw into a 3.5mm (or 3.6mm) hole in metal/titanal/carbon and other less 'bendable/compressible material' could contribute to 'volcanoing'. In more 'bendable/compressible material', the screw shank in the ski core of a 3.5mm hole, will compress the material slightly and might even provide more retention.

    In woodworking, pre-drilling in hardwood, the bit diameter matches the screw shank. In soft woods, the pre-drill diameter is slightly smaller than the screw shank. Same basic reasoning, I think.
    Best regards, Terry
    (Direct Contact is best vs PMs)

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  15. #2765
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    Welp, I've been mounting my own fucking skis for years and I've finally managed to fuck one up...

    Drilled one heel screw about .5-1mm too far back. I can still get the heelpiece in, but it has to face slightly (a few degrees) to the right to get in with the wonky screw hole.

    So when I click in my toes, the heel insert is slightly off from where it should be:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I can still click in no problem (no extra force needed or anything).

    Is this going to be an issue? Should I be doing anything about it?

    If it makes any difference these are Hagan Core 12s (same binding as ATK Raider) installed with inserts. They've got 30mm of adjustment so I could in theory pull the binding and install again 1cm forward - but I'd rather not start the Swiss cheese already if it isn't going to be an issue!

  16. #2766
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    Quote Originally Posted by lazyasian View Post
    .....

    I can still click in no problem (no extra force needed or anything).

    Is this going to be an issue? Should I be doing anything about it?
    ....
    Short of testing it on the machine you can't really confirm its not affecting release values. If the Cores use a U-spring, I'd also be wary about flexing the two springs at such different tensions.

    This is why most tech mounts recommend really focusing on dialing the heel in perfect, then installing just one toe screw so that you can align the toe piece with the heel.

  17. #2767
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    Quote Originally Posted by doebedoe View Post
    Short of testing it on the machine you can't really confirm its not affecting release values. If the Cores use a U-spring, I'd also be wary about flexing the two springs at such different tensions.

    This is why most tech mounts recommend really focusing on dialing the heel in perfect, then installing just one toe screw so that you can align the toe piece with the heel.
    Maybe master techs. I know a lot of techs that don't understand how to mount a ski without a jig (ie don't truly understand how the mounting process works)
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  18. #2768
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    Quote Originally Posted by lazyasian View Post
    Welp, I've been mounting my own fucking skis for years and I've finally managed to fuck one up...

    Drilled one heel screw about .5-1mm too far back. I can still get the heelpiece in, but it has to face slightly (a few degrees) to the right to get in with the wonky screw hole.

    So when I click in my toes, the heel insert is slightly off from where it should be:

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	268580

    I can still click in no problem (no extra force needed or anything).

    Is this going to be an issue? Should I be doing anything about it?

    If it makes any difference these are Hagan Core 12s (same binding as ATK Raider) installed with inserts. They've got 30mm of adjustment so I could in theory pull the binding and install again 1cm forward - but I'd rather not start the Swiss cheese already if it isn't going to be an issue!
    I think it depends on your risk tolerance. How much extra/less force will be required to separate those pins with them off 1mm? No idea. I'd probably ski them and find out lol.
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  19. #2769
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3PinGrin View Post
    I just run a 4.1 / 3.6 step bit for everything any more. It doesn't hurt if there isn't a metal/carbon layer and you're good if there is.
    Got a link to the one you use?
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  20. #2770
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    Quote Originally Posted by SupreChicken View Post
    Got a link to the one you use?
    It's the Armada 4.1 / 3.5 (thought it was 3.6), a couple options there.

    https://www.slidewright.com/alpine--...drill-bits.php

  21. #2771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
    This is all about splitting hairs. Often good enough is good enough. But like any 'craft', best practices don't hurt and might help doing a better job. They're your skis and your ass and I would expect low probability of a major problem unless you end up with spinners.

    Most skis should indicate what diameter is recommended for that ski. I would think that driving a 4.1mm shanked screw into a 3.5mm (or 3.6mm) hole in metal/titanal/carbon and other less 'bendable/compressible material' could contribute to 'volcanoing'. In more 'bendable/compressible material', the screw shank in the ski core of a 3.5mm hole, will compress the material slightly and might even provide more retention.

    In woodworking, pre-drilling in hardwood, the bit diameter matches the screw shank. In soft woods, the pre-drill diameter is slightly smaller than the screw shank. Same basic reasoning, I think.
    Yeah, CF is a funny material, which is why I asked, although it was a theoretical question, since everything gets inserts and I have the right bit and tap for that ;-)

    I recall reading comments about mis-torqued CF forks on bikes, and the reported failures which got me to thinking about whether 3.6 + tap would stress the CF.

    I should pick up a 4.1 bit in case someone asks me to do a conventional (no inserts) mount for them.

    ... Thom

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    Galibier Design
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  22. #2772
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
    This is all about splitting hairs.
    This is literally the splitting hairs thread, because really, it's just screws into wood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpinord View Post
    In woodworking, pre-drilling in hardwood, the bit diameter matches the screw shank. In soft woods, the pre-drill diameter is slightly smaller than the screw shank. Same basic reasoning, I think.
    Yeah I agree, and would add that 3.5 was likely chosen as a standard for non-metal skis to reduce the possibility of water intrusion.

  23. #2773
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    Quote Originally Posted by galibier_numero_un View Post
    I should pick up a 4.1 bit in case someone asks me to do a conventional (no inserts) mount for them.
    That bit that 3pin uses looks pretty slick - but spendy!

    If it's only for 'just in case' or 'once in a blue moon', you can buy a metric 4.0 or a #20 (which is 4.089 mm) regular bit at your local hardware store.

    Additionally, a reg 9/64 bit = 3.57 mm

  24. #2774
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    @lazyasian, which is crooked the toe or heel? Because from that pic it could be either.

  25. #2775
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    Thanks for the responses guys. I'll most likely try them out in some mellower terrain and see what happens. Maybe push forward pressure or release up a notch in an ignorant attempt to even things out.

    Quote Originally Posted by pisteoff View Post
    @lazyasian, which is crooked the toe or heel? Because from that pic it could be either.
    It's the heel. Toe piece is all in line (it's just the angle of the pic that makes it look off).

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