A Tale of Internet Relationships, Shameless Spam and Avalanche Safety

[scottcha]

A couple of questions I have.

1. Will the app still work without Cell reception (3G, 4G, any G)
2. What is your response when the inevitable happens and someone says, "My Iphone said it was safe".
3. Where is this data being stored?

The kick backs are awesome! I really like the concept. Just a few concerns to start off.

Hi, I'm the other half of Ullr Labs.
1. The app is designed to work completely without cell reception. You can then choose to transmit the data once you have reception.
2. We make no decisions in the app and consciously choose to not give a red/green light. We only raise warnings based on best practices found in guidebooks and avalanche courses and leave the decision making to the user.
3. Data is stored locally on your phone and if transmitted is stored in our online database (which we will make publically available without personally identifiable information). The information will also be transmitted to the regional centers if we've worked out a way to transmit that data to their database; the centers Bob listed in his origional post are the centers we are currently talking to about sharing this information.

Love the feedback and the questions. Keep em coming.

[covert]

Can you describe the level of iPad compatability and export options for snowpack/wx/ax obs ie. can we export that shit to a desktop as a pdf or jpeg or something?

[::: :::]

earnest question (not trying to be an internet provocateur)

aren't smartphones the #1 interference cultprit for beacons?
how does this jibe with the app use?

[grubbers]

I think the higher price of the app will keep those people who lack backcountry skills and common sense from buying it and misusing it with poor results. Experienced backcountry skiers who feel that they would benefit from this app should have no problems paying only $12 for an app that might be able to enhance their decision making skills by providing them with more information than they may have at the time.

[Sinecure]

It's funny how we pause at a price tag of $12 for an app. On a computer a few years ago, we'd have paused about an app that was $12 because at that price it had to be crap. Now we've become conditioned to expect apps that cost less than $3. Weird how things change. And I'll admit that $12 did give me a moment's pause.

That said, $12 for what this does is cheap. Look at the insane amount of money we spend on beacons. They should cost $50 max. Then everyone would have one (well, more people anyway). I'm looking forward to spending more on this app than I have for any iPhone app to date. Plus it will go well with the iPhone 4S that showed up on my doorstep this afternoon.

[TBS]

Thanks for the great feedback

And just so everybody understands, Scottcha did the coding - if he did it nekkid while talking to his mom, I really don't wanna know... Of course, that might explain why he would sometimes call and ask if I was alone and what I was wearing...

We get the argument about price point. Ms Telebobski (Ullr Labs' Web Goddess) said we should price at $9.99 too. But we also looked at a regular rite-in-the-rain pit book selling for $20 and thought "we provide way more functionality and cost 60% of the current solution...seems reasonable."

When we got into this adventure, we wanted to be clear that we weren't going to provide some abbreviated "go/no-go" decision for people. There are just too many variables in the analysis, many of which a machine can't absorb. See our "Warnings about Warnings" at http://www.ullrlabs.com/pdf/WarningsAboutWarnings.pdf

This is an interesting point:

earnest question (not trying to be an internet provocateur)

aren't smartphones the #1 interference cultprit for beacons?
how does this jibe with the app use?

There's some anecdotal evidence that maybe an iPhone can interfere with a beacon. Here's a thread I found in Slide Zone http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ighlight=phone

It basically sez (liberal paraphrasing here) that a cell phone isn't a problem so long as you aren't in the middle of a conversation while trying to find a buried friend; that an iPod music signal plays holy hell with a beacon; and, it's unclear whether a gps signal causes problems.

On the other hand, Bruce Tremper is telling people his iPhone is his most important piece of backcountry equipment. And while I wouldn't go THAT far, I don't think he'd be that into the idea if it might mean he gets buried and can't be found.

So with that said, I'd be real interested in an objective scientific discourse on the subject - if only that could happen on this board!

Again, thanks for the props and feedback. And feel free to PM Scottcha regularly about his progress on the Android version.

[TBS]

Freakin' a. Great job! In case, you haven't already done this, make sure you have a water-tight disclaimer. Might have to hire a good corporate lawyer for this one, or maybe one of our lawyer mags can advise. I'd hate for you guys to get sued because some scumbag attorney found a hole in your disclaimer after someone gets inevitably injured/killed because they solely relied on the app, foregoing common sense.

Hope you guys have the utmost success with this app! Let us know how it turns out. Will definitely buy it once it's released for Android.

This is a good idea. Any lawyer Mags with iPhones out there wanna improve the disclaimer we have in http://www.ullrlabs.com/pdf/WarningsAboutWarnings.pdf in exchange for a free copy? PM me.

[covert]

Your Warnings and Warnings about Warnings seem to be blurring the line between teacher and tool.

I would scrap the whole Warnings about Warnings, replace this "They should by no means be considered the complete and sole source of decision making for backcountry travel" with this "They should by no means be considered a source of decision making for backcountry travel" and start calling them something way more innocuous than warnings like 'additional info.'

The lowest common denominator of user is the idiot that will rely on the warnings despite any disclaimer and then seek to place blame if something goes wrong. The title "warning" in itself implies that the app is suggesting a course of action.

just my .02, i am not a lawyer but i do have lots of experience with tards in the bc.

[NatEE]

Look at the insane amount of money we spend on beacons. They should cost $50 max. Then everyone would have one (well, more people anyway).

Not sure I would trust a $50 beacon... Given that it's a relatively low volume product, and needs to operate reliably over temperature, as well as handle a high humidity environment & condensation, all while lasting at least a few years. Granted, BOM cost of the beacon should be pretty low, as they are generally pretty simple devices. I'm not sure it's the case, but I hope beacon manufacturers are speccing boards/parts for the extended environment AND are doing a significant amount of testing to confirm that they're meeting it. This adds quite a bit of cost.

There's some anecdotal evidence that maybe an iPhone can interfere with a beacon. Here's a thread I found in Slide Zone http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/s...ighlight=phone

It basically sez (liberal paraphrasing here) that a cell phone isn't a problem so long as you aren't in the middle of a conversation while trying to find a buried friend; that an iPod music signal plays holy hell with a beacon; and, it's unclear whether a gps signal causes problems.

The big take-away I've gotten from the interference threads, and one which jives with my modest EMI/EMC experience is that very near-field radiation from a cell phone/ipod, etc, is likely the problem, which means the interference will be very distance sensitive (ie, don't put the two devices right next to each other!). It's probably a good idea to test out your particular phone with your particular beacon during practice drills and see if you can get anything strange to happen. If there is any doubt in your mind that it might cause problems, just turn the phone off when you don't need it.

[Piggity]

Given that it's a relatively low volume product

I don't want to put words in his mouth but I think that's his point with this comment...

They should cost $50 max. Then everyone would have one (well, more people anyway)

Businesses usually either choose to be a high markup/low volume seller or a low markup/high volume seller.

[::: :::]

just turn the phone off when you don't need it.

this is the advice i'd always seen. it flies in the face of calling your mom while nailing a line, but i'm safe that way

i guess you can use the device while documenting/testing and put it away. besides, if you're in a sketch pit location, you're going to be anchored anyway, right?

[Slaag Master]

wow! great job!

[skimaxpower]

This looks super useful. Congrats on building your own app, and starting your own business. Way to go!

[hutash]

I just bought it.

Is there a user manual in the app? If so, I can't find it, if not, I would suggest adding one.

[scottcha]

I just bought it.

Is there a user manual in the app? If so, I can't find it, if not, I would suggest adding one.

Here is the current user guide: http://ullrlabs.com/pdf/MAST_ProductWalkthrough.pdf its linked on our website. I'll get a link added to the app added in a future update.

[turboLT]

Ka-ching. Now I just need snow to test it.

This replaces my beacon, right?

[TBS]

Ka-ching. Now I just need snow to test it.

This replaces my beacon, right?

No, still recommend you carry a beacon, or download this iPhone beacon app - see http://www.wildsnow.com/1773/avi-the...on-for-iphone/

[Sinecure]

This replaces my beacon, right?

Only if you wrap the phone in bacon.

[TBS]

Bump for new season spam on our maggot-inspired business adventure...

Scottcha and I continued our tawdry internet relationship through the warm months. We added support for Android devices in the fall - see https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...chesafetytools

Earlier this month we released V2.0 for iPhone that includes:
- Video capture of conditions and any stability test
- photo capture of pit profiles in addition to the existing location/aspect/angle photo
- For iPhones 4s and 5, Siri translates your dictation into text in multiple note fields; no more typing with frozen fingers or grinding out notes with a stylus
- Measuring pit layers from either the bottom up or the top down
- Measuring shear quality using both the SWAG and OGRS scales
- Addition of the prop saw test

We plan to release these features (except voice-text) for Android by the end of January.



Outside Magazine featured us - Along with another maggot-inspired business, Liftopia.com - in their Winter Buyer's Guide. We also got a great writeup in ESPNonline. See
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor...s-of-2013.html
and
http://espn.go.com/action/freeskiing...g-snowboarding

MAST user observations are showing up in a variety of Avalanche Center databases. We're currently working with UAC, CAIC and a host of other avy centers to share MAST observations on their websites. And check out what we are doing with NWAC's spacial mapping and snowpack exchange system - http://www.wwu.edu/huxley/spatial/maps/nwac/

We've given away about 50 free licenses for avalanche center fundraisers so far this season, and encourage all centers and Friends groups to ping us if you could use some free licenses for event shwag, door prizes or silent auction items. We also give MAST away free to AIARE and AAI instructors, and to Avalanche Center employees. Email bob[at]ullrlabs(dot)com for details.

Thanks to you who have bought MAST so far. If you like it, we'd appreciate your glowing, honest review on the iTunes or GooglePlay stores (if pressed, we will take glowing over honest). And let us know how we can make it better.

www.ullrlabs.com

[Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer]

Really cool - thanks for taking the initiative.

[LightRanger]

Just read about the iPhone version on Tremper's blog the other day about avy apps. Didn't bother checking for the Android version because I assumed it wasn't there. Then I saw this thread. Had no idea it was a mag project.

Downloaded. Looking forward to playing with it.

[davieboot]

Nice work. Don't know how I missed this the first go-round.

[spankthepow]

Purchased! Can't wait to see what this app has to offer

[powdork]

Thanks for the great feedback

And just so everybody understands, Scottcha did the coding - if he did it nekkid while talking to his mom, I really don't wanna know... Of course, that might explain why he would sometimes call and ask if I was alone and what I was wearing...

just noticed this. you're Scottcha's mom??
awesome!!

this is the advice i'd always seen. it flies in the face of calling your mom while nailing a line, but i'm safe that way.

turn your phone on to call. pee while you wait for it. kill 2 birds with 1 phone

[Meadow Skipper]

Can't believe I missed this 1st time around. Grabbing my iPhone to dl right now. I'll try it on ski area snow study pits.