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  1. #51
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    No worries - I think regardless, the point about people not wanting to carry a lot of weight is valid. I know many people who want to travel/move around light. I don't mind it (carry around body + 3 lenses all day pretty much everywhere I travel), so for me a DSLR is still the best option at this point.
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  2. #52
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    FWIW, the cost of the prism can be up to 10-15% of the final cost of the camera, and this doesn't include the cost of the mirror and shutter mechanism. So the costs involved are significant.
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  3. #53
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    This review of the NEX-7 makes a compelling argument for these cameras. Definitely intriguing. Thanks for the heads up on the mirrorless option.
    So what are the main features of the NEX-7? The “7″ is jam packed full of features and no one in their right mind could complain about everything Sony packs in this little body. Take a look at all of the good stuff below: DSLR Quality in Your Pocket (It would NOT fit in your pocket with a lens attached)Here’s the same APS-C sensor size as a DSLR, with higher resolution than most DSLRs and the interchangeable lenses that make DSLRs so attractive. Yet the camera is about half the size and weight of a typical DSLR camera. Removing the conventional mirror box and viewfinder makes it possible 24.3Mp ResolutionYou get incredible detail and gorgeous enlargements thanks to a 24.3 megapixel sensor. It’s the highest resolution among pocket cameras as of August 2011 World’s First OLED ViewfinderThere’s never been anything quite like the Tru-Finder OLED electronic viewfinder. For size, speed and brightness even after sunset, this is a gem. This eye-level, through-the-lens, viewfinder begins with 2359K dots for amazing resolution and high contrast ratio for incredible depth. OLED reduces motion blur to a bare minimum. You can also see the results of camera adjustments in real time with superb color and detail Up to 10 Frames Per Second ShootingCapture the decisive moment in sports and get the ideal baby photo. Up to 10 fps continuous shooting at full 24.3Mp resolution with exposure and focus fixed at the first frame. Standard continuous shooting at up to 2.5 fps DSLR-Class APS-C Image SensorSensor size is the key to picture quality. The APS-C class sensor provides gorgeous imaging with 58% more area than Micro Four-Thirds sensors and an amazing 13 times the area of a point & shoot image sensor Full HD Movies at 60p/60i/24pCapture HD Movies in your choice of super-smooth 60p, standard 60i or cinematic 24p, all at Full HD 1920 x 1080 resolution. AVCHD codec delivers stunning picture quality. MP4 codec offers smaller files for easier upload to the web HD Movies with Full Manual ControlNow you don’t need to surrender control when you shoot HD movies. Enjoy the full expressive potential of Program, Shutter Priority, Aperture Priority or Manual (P/A/S/M) control in HD movie mode Tri-Navi Manual ControlPerfect for experienced shooters, Tri-Navi control gives you three separate control dials for direct, hands-on access to three settings at a time. As just one example, the dials can set aperture, exposure compensation and ISO Built-In Pop-Up FlashEnjoy the convenience of flash photography everywhere you go. Guide Number 6 Hotshoe for Alpha System FlashesTake your photography even further with access to the entire range of Sony Alpha system flashes and flash accessories Accepts A Mount Lenses Via AdaptersBoth the LA-EA1 and EA2 adapters (sold separately) allow you to attach the full range of Sony A mount lenses Phase Detect AF with AdapterThe LA-EA2 lens mount adaptor (sold separately) is the world’s first with Sony’s award-winning Translucent Mirror Technology. This provides super-fast and accurate Phase Detection AF when used with Sony A mount lenses Tiltable 3.0″ LCDSony’s 3.0″ Xtra Fine LCD monitor has 921K dots for superb resolution. The TruBlack screen includes a special resin layer to suppress internal reflections, increasing contrast compared to conventional LCDs. Sunny Weather mode boosts visibility even further. Tilts down 45° and up 80° to frame high- and low-angle shots that would otherwise be hit-or-miss Object Tracking AFLocks onto a specified object and maintains focus even as the subject moves. Unpredictable subjects stay in focus even while zooming. You can concentrate on composition without worrying about focus World’s Shortest Release Time LagHelps ensure that the image you want is the image you get. Once auto focus occurs, release time lag is the delay between fully pressing the shutter release and when the camera actually starts taking the picture. Long lag makes it harder to capture fast-moving objects. The Sony NEX-7 boasts the shortest release time in the world (as of August 2011) at only 0.02 seconds Accepts Sony E-Mount LensesCompatible with Sony’s expanded line of E Mount lenses. These smaller, lighter lenses are specifically designed for Alpha compact interchangeable lens cameras. Opens up a world of creative options Peaking FunctionManual focus becomes much easier because peaking highlights the edges that are in focus in your choice of three colors (white, red, or yellow). This is especially helpful during macro or portrait photography where your focus setting can make or break your shot 3D Sweep Panorama ModeCapture vast scenic vistas and 16:9 shots in spectacular 3D. As you sweep across the panorama, the camera records separate right-eye and left-eye images that make landscapes come alive on your 3D television7. Records both JPEG and MPO file formats Sweep Panorama ModeCapture expansive landscapes automatically. Press the shutter, sweep vertically or horizontally. The camera does the rest, continuously shooting images and stitching them together 6-Image LayeringLeverages the fast BIONZ processor to capture six images in a fraction of a second, and then combine the data. The result is an incredible single image that controls blur in Anti-Motion Blur mode or gets cleaner, sharper nighttime pictures in Hand-held Twilight mode Auto HDRHigh Dynamic Range (HDR) photography captures more scene contrast than a single exposure can handle by combining the best highlight detail from one shot and the best shadow detail from another for one incredible shot P/A/S/M Modes for Video and StillsEnjoy a full range of controls for video and still shooting from the beginner’s iAUTO mode to P/A/S/M: Program, Aperture Priority, Shutter Priority and Manual. On-screen prompts help you refine your skills, build your confidence and exercise greater creative control Intelligent Auto FocusPre-focuses as you compose the shot, further reducing focusing time to a bare minimum iAUTO ModeUnifies and simplifies Sony intelligent technologies. Takes advantage of Intelligent Scene Recognition, Face Detection technology, and Optical SteadyShot image stabilization without leaving auto mode so you always get the best shot BIONZ Image ProcessorThe brain of the camera is a Sony’s BIONZ image processor substantially upgraded for the demands of 24.3 megapixel photography. Chroma noise reduction delivers high-resolution, low-noise photos even at ISO 16000 sensitivity. Also enables fast processing for up to 10 fps continuous shooting of data-intensive 24.3Mp images, 2D/3D Sweep Panorama modes and 6-image layering Dynamic Range Optimizer (DRO)Improves results with backlit subjects and recovers details hidden in shadows. Settings include Auto, Level with a choice of five operating levels and Off Accepts Non-Sony Lenses Via AdapterYou can use the camera with a universe of lenses from Canon, Nikon, Leica, Olympus and others. The success of Sony’s NEX series, combined with the ultra-short 18mm flange back distance has inspired third-party manufacturers to provide lens adaptors. In addition, Sony has disclosed the E Mount specification to Carl Zeiss, Cosina, Sigma and Tamron 25-Point Auto Focus25 sensors cover a very wide area of the scene, for accurate focusing even when the subject is far from the center of the frame HDMI OutputEnjoy HD movies and stunning still images on a compatible HDTV. The camera includes an HDMI output Stamina Battery Power for Up to 400 ShotsTake up to 400 shots on a single charge with Sony lithium ion Stamina battery power (using LCD monitor). Sony’s InfoLITHIUM battery system enables you to see the percent of power remaining, so you can keep shooting in confidence Sony Exmor CMOS SensorSony Exmor technology uses column-parallel A/D converters for high resolution and high frame rates. Double noise reduction minimizes image noise, even in low light 11 Picture Effect ModesDiscover innovative ways to make your images and videos pop. These include Posterization, Pop Color, Retro Photo, Partial Color, Soft High-key, High Contrast Monochrome, Toy Camera, Soft Focus, HDR Painting, Rich-tone Monochrome, and Miniature Ultrasonic Anti-Dust SystemDust on the image sensor leads to blemishes in the picture. To protect the sensor, Sony incorporates an advanced ultrasonic system, which effectively shakes dust off the sensor surface
    Last edited by Alpinord; 11-26-2011 at 06:58 PM.
    Best regards, Terry
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  4. #54
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    The NEX-7 is kind of a game breaker. It's still not going to be the equal of a D3s or 1DMKIV on a 400 2.8 or a 600/4 or whatever, but for amateur use and even slower-moving pro use like travel photography or maybe even portraiture, it looks like a really awesome camera. If I had money coming out my ass I'd buy one.

  5. #55
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    Just wait two or three years and cameras like that will be affordable with the money under the seats in your car.
    ...Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain...

    "I enjoy skinny skiing, bullfights on acid..." - Lacy Underalls

    The problems we face will not be solved by the minds that created them.

  6. #56
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    Looks like the "toy" is giving the big boys a run for their money.

    http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cam...(brand3)/Canon

    The only place these cameras "beat" the NEX7 is in the high ISO score. Now I realize there is a lot more to a cam than a DxOMark score, but the fact that a mirrorless cam, which is not much bigger than a box of altoids, and costs 1/2 to 1/4 as much can produce comparable image quality shows the game is changing. That has been my only point all along....
    This is the worst pain EVER!

  7. #57
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    Read it and weap folks. That's two years running for Sony. A55 last year and the NEX-7 this year.



    Oh, and what's the tag line? "A compact camera so awesome you might dump your DSLR". Never heard that before, have we???



    [/blatant troll mode]
    Last edited by Lonnie; 12-07-2011 at 12:59 PM.
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  8. #58
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    more like standard cock suck mode.

  9. #59
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    This message is hidden because systemoverblow'd is on your ignore list.
    Did you say something?? Speak up, I can't hear you....
    This is the worst pain EVER!

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
    Read it and weap folks. That's two years running for Sony. A55 last year and the NEX-7 this year.



    Oh, and what's the tag line? "A compact camera so awesome you might dump your DSLR". Never heard that before, have we???



    [/blatant troll mode]
    I get your point here, but that's like saying Deer Valley is the best resort in the US.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by smmokan View Post
    I get your point here, but that's like saying Deer Valley is the best resort in the US.
    Do you? Did you click the link above where it shows the NEX-7 beating the 5DMii for image quality? Pretty impressive given the size of the beast. (Simply based on IQ it will smoke your 7d, for just about the same price new as you paid for your refirb 7d.)

    Here's a quote from luminious landscapes rolling review of the NEX-7.

    One day after publication of the above noise comparison between the NEX-7 and the NEX-5n, DxO Labs has published their test results on the NEX-7. They score it at 81, which is only exceed among all cameras tested by a handful of medium format cameras from Hasselblad, Phase One and Pentax, and among DSLRs the Pentax K5 and Nikon D3s, which score just 1 point higher (statistically insignificant).
    Think about what that's saying. A camera that fits in your ski pocket exceeds the IQ of ALL dslr's with the exception of couple which is statistically tied. It takes a MF camera to get superior IQ. That unbelievable performance for a device of this size.

    People want to write them off just because of their size. Don't. There's more to mirrorless than you guys realize...
    Last edited by Lonnie; 12-08-2011 at 04:36 PM.
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
    Do you? Did you click the link above where it shows the NEX-7 beating the 5DMii for image quality? Pretty impressive given the size of the beast. (Simply based on IQ it will smoke your 7d, for just about the same price new as you paid for your refirb 7d
    Gee a brand new camera beating a 3 year old camera. Who would have thunk it!

    Oh, I forgot, you won't see this message because you are ignoring me like a little bitch.

  13. #63
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    This message is hidden because systemoverblow'd is on your ignore list.
    This is United States calling are we reaching??
    See he keeps hanging up...
    This is the worst pain EVER!

  14. #64
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    Lonnie, I hate Sony because of your annoying spam.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by outabounds View Post
    Lonnie, I hate Sony because of your annoying spam.
    Good. More product for me. I will feel sorry for you tho when they take over the camera world.

    FWIW, I've handled and shot with both Nikon and Cannon cameras. Very few of you that shoot the other brands can say the reverse. How can you honestly say you hate a product you've never handled. You can't. You guys just don't like the fact that there might just be a "better" product out there than the one your using. (what you really don't like is me reminding you of "it" every 6 seconds...)

    Back to the original topic, Ignoring what I'm trying to tell you guys won't change the coming reality about the mirrorless class of cameras. Regardless of brand loyal dick waving, that's my real point here.
    Last edited by Lonnie; 12-08-2011 at 10:40 PM.
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  16. #66
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    I have shot Sony video system for the last 6 years. I don't hate them, I hate you.

    Again, i'm sure you either can't see this because you are ignoring me or are lying, actually reading my posts and pretending you are ignoring them. Either way I have worked with more Professional equipment than you will ever fondle and I'm sure my opinion means very little to a simple minded idiot such as yourself.
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  17. #67
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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonnie View Post
    Do you? Did you click the link above where it shows the NEX-7 beating the 5DMii for image quality? Pretty impressive given the size of the beast. (Simply based on IQ it will smoke your 7d, for just about the same price new as you paid for your refirb 7d.)
    No, I'll admit I haven't read up on the NEX cameras because I'm not really all that interested in them right now. I have a hard time believing they're better than the 5D2 and the 7D for most applications of shooting other than landscapes. The body is just too gimmicky with the touch-screen and the EVF/LCD shooting. The lack of good lenses hurts the portability factor too.

    That being said, none of my posts were meant to degrade anything you've said... I have no problem with your comments and "fanboy" attitude with them. Hell, I might even pick one up for a vacation camera since they're so compact. I wish they were a little smaller- they'd be perfect to take MTB'ing.

    Oh, and using the link above, the 7D beats the NEX-7. I'd like to see some good shots with the NEX-5 or 7 before jumping to conclusions on the quality, too. All I've seen are the pictures in that link you posted above, which are hardly outstanding. It would be nice to see some action shots or quality portraits that compare with what I've seen from the 5D2/7D and Canon's better lenses.
    Last edited by smmokan; 12-08-2011 at 11:52 PM.

  19. #69
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    It's worth mentioning that the NEX-7 is extremely strong in terms of color depth, and quite good in dynamic range. However, it lags noticeably behind the professional full-frame DSLRs when it comes to high-ISO performance, which for a lot of photographers is the critical factor. DXO has it as tied with my D3s, but the good scores are all in the areas that I don't need.

    I still wish I could afford to buy an NEX-7 and a suite of lenses, though. I'll just have to make do with the GF2.

  20. #70
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    John, Steve and Max all make some excellent, and on point rebuttals. And there's nothing that I will disagree with. The nex line never does well on snapsort for a couple of reasons 1) they only look at native lenses which is a bit unfair because with the 17 mm flange distance on the cameras, if you are willing to manual focus, you can pretty much stick any lens ever made on these cameras with an adapter (in fact you can adapt all of the 169 nikon lenses that the list for the d7k in addition to Steve's EOS lens and the native ones). But I can understand the point. One of the other is the evf vs ovf. By all accounts I've read the OLED finder is outstanding and not like the old EVF froms days gone by. But again, I understand the point, and won't quibble with it to much.

    My statements above were simply based on IQ, and as Max points out, there are multiple components to that, like high iso. Everyone has to evaluate what their specific needs are and works for them.

    I think I'd also like to remind everyone that the Nex-7 is a second generation camera. That's pretty impressive, and gets to the only real point that I'm trying to make in all of this which is one day all of our cameras will be mirrorless. We'll still have full bodied cameras, but they won't have mirrors in them any longer.

    As for the rest of my statements, take the for what they are worth. A grain of salt. I like to pull for "my team". Big deal. I was voted most school spirted when I graduated from high school almost 25 years ago now. So times I get carried away. If you think I'm full of shit. they hey, I can live with that........
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  21. #71
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    FYI, the DXO tests you linked above are not testing for IQ. IQ is dependent hugely on the lens used. What the tests measured are sensor capabilities (hence "sensor scores") -- and actually the tests are before any demosaicing is done, which could produce different final images. Color depth, dynamic range and ISO (which make up the sensor scores listed) have to do with the sensor. I don't find the color depth or dynamic range lacking in most of today's DSLRs (and even most P&S's). Like Max said, noise however is a factor for me, and there is a big variation in cameras in that area. The other area that is important for me is the DoF. I like having the ability to shoot a shallow DoF. So if I include DoF in IQ evaluation, then a FF camera beats out a smaller sensor body for me.

    Newer cameras will typically improve over older ones, that's no surprise. So the fact that the NEX-7 performs slightly better (btw, I don't know if Luminous Landscape really understands the meaning of "statistically significant") in some areas (color depth, DR) than older bodies isn't that much of an impetus for me to jump ship. I've been using older bodies/tech for many years now (Nikon D50, Canon 40D, and now 5D2) without feeling the need to get the latest and greatest. I have to ask myself, "What can Camera X do that my Camera Y cannot, and is that difference important enough to me?" In the case of the NEX-7, you point out the mirrorless feature. But the inner workings of the camera really don't matter to me; I don't care whether it's mirrorless or not -- the question for me is: "What difference does it make if it's mirrorless or not?" The answer is that it's smaller. Agreed, but that's only if we're talking about a body and very small lens. I like shooting with several lenses (16-35, 35, 70-200). So even with a small mirrorless body, I'd still want to carry multiple lenses, in which case the small size of the body doesn't really matter that much. When I really do want a small camera, I take my S95 -- not the best quality, but in those cases, size is more important than quality.

    The one thing that I do like about the NEX is the articulating rear LCD. I had one in my old Nikon Coolpix 5700 and it was really useful for shooting at weird angles (e.g. lower to the ground, over a crowd, astrophotography). I wish Canon would incorporate that into their designs.

    So for me, the evaluation goes as follows:
    - Pros of NEX-7: Higher color depth (not very important), more DR (not very important), articulating LCD (somewhat important), (size advantage is negated by multiple lenses).
    - Cons of NEX-7: Not as good high ISO performance (very important), EVF (quite important, especially for manual focus), not as many native lens options (very important), not as shallow DoF (very important).

    Your real point that all future cameras will be mirrorless is of no importance to me. It may be of interest to engineers or technicians, but what matters to me is, how does that change my photography experience? As long as good lenses are still the size they are, the size reduction of the body doesn't make that much difference to me (e.g. my biggest question when choosing a camera bag is not "Will my body fit in this?" Rather, it's "Will my lenses fit in this?").
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  22. #72
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    Let your awesome camera do the talking, Lonnie. When's the last time you posted a photo you took? Seems like the Sony just makes you operate your mouth (well, keyboard).

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by outabounds View Post
    When's the last time you posted a photo you took? Seems like the Sony just makes you operate your mouth (well, keyboard).
    1/2 of that's fair. Truth be told, ever since advres went off on me, I've intentionally not posted any pics here. My pics are out there if you know where to look...
    This is the worst pain EVER!

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by outabounds View Post
    Let your awesome camera do the talking, Lonnie. When's the last time you posted a photo you took? Seems like the Sony just makes you operate your mouth (well, keyboard).
    How about this one....



    This is one of the 24"x36" canvas print I just sold today. Merry Christmas to me...
    This is the worst pain EVER!

  25. #75
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    With Sony releasing the Full Frame A7Rii last week, I'm bumping this (not to be an @$$ but just to see how far we've come in 4 years). Lots of the stuff I predicted is coming true. The ability to quickly and accurately AF other manufactures lenses on a lightweight FF body (along with ultra high MP, and outstanding Dynamic Range) has lots of folks jumping on board with FE mirrorless.
    This is the worst pain EVER!

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