An honest (armchair) discussion of the 11/13/11 Gad Valley avalanche accident.

[toast2266]

It stems more form the idea of risk taking and what we deem acceptable, cool, or not cool. My point being, people are calling Jamie careless for no beacon/shovel/probe, supposed standards in backcountry skiing. Yet soloists are applauded for their risk taking.

I think those examples are pretty distinguishable. Soloists (and JP in his hucking days) take calculated risks; they know the risks and accept them. Clearly those risks are higher than most people are willing to accept, but for better or worse, the risk is a fairly known quantity, and the high risk is certainly part of the attraction. On the other hand, snow instability isn't a known quantity if you don't assess it. Failing to bring avy gear and/or assess the snow pack isn't an acceptance of a known risk, it's just willful ignorance. I highly doubt JP decided not to bring safety gear because it was more exciting, more challenging, or more of a rush.

[beaterdit]

It stems more form the idea of risk taking and what we deem acceptable, cool, or not cool. My point being, people are calling Jamie careless for no beacon/shovel/probe, supposed standards in backcountry skiing. Yet soloists are applauded for their risk taking.

In my thinking on this, I see the lack of gear just as an indication of a general lack of concern for any type of avalanche risk. Seems it was just the furthest thing from their minds. Of course, like I've said, I wasn't there but as much as I've tried, I've come to the conclusion that my thought process is just different from theirs so I can't really even speculate on the thought process.

[Trackhead]

Failing to bring avy gear and/or assess the snow pack isn't an acceptance of a known risk, it's just willful ignorance. I highly doubt JP decided not to bring safety gear because it was more exciting, more challenging, or more of a rush.

I ski without avy gear on occasion, and in my early days of ice climbing in avy terrain, we never carried avy stuff because it's just too much shit to carry around. It wasn't ignorance, it was a clear choice.

[F#*k you cat]

Moving tribute to JP today. Glad to see so many LCC peeps paying tribute to a member of the tribe.

Having lost my bro in Switzerland late 2009....I can understand what the family is going thu right now. I think about my lil bro every day.. he knows how much I miss him.

Like a maggot once told me while I was coping with loss...these words coming from the one we miss

"It's ok bro, don't worry about me, I'll save a spot here for you when the time comes, I'm off to somewhere cool"

CAT

[sfotex]

Why didn't anyone criticize Billy Poole when he died? I think that's how most thought JP would die.

I think we start to think of people like JP as invincible or in total control of their life, and then when they die in a more mundane way we have to accept that day-to-day life might be more dangerous then we care to admit (or unfair..). When Billy Poole died it was easy to say 'See, thats why I don't huck big cliffs' , but what do you say about JP? 'See, that's why I don't ski slopes that can avalanche' Oh wait, I do that all the time.

Michael Reardon solo'd hundreds of hard routes, including onsight solo of 5.13b/c, then died when he was swept away to sea by a rogue wave.......

[icelanticskier]

It wasn't ignorance, it was a clear choice.

THIS.

sorry to hear about yer bro, CAT.

rog

[skifishbum]

Moving tribute to JP today. Glad to see so many LCC peeps paying tribute to a member of the tribe.

Having lost my bro in Switzerland late 2009....I can understand what the family is going thu right now. I think about my lil bro every day.. he knows how much I miss him.

Like a maggot once told me while I was coping with loss...these words coming from the one we miss

"It's ok bro, don't worry about me, I'll save a spot here for you when the time comes, I'm off to somewhere cool"

CAT

touching to say the least 2 neil young songs got me and the dalmation had one of those in hschool
sorry missed ya didn't hang my bcc bum felt out of place and skis to mount
I may send an offer to float em down the green sometime seein kids catch the fishes stokes me out
vibes and godspeed

[powder11]

I have people to go home to too.

I can't really judge JP on his final decision making because I wasn't there and neither were any of you, but his little ones waiting at home
should have been the main factor to dial back his whole persona and take life a bit more seriously.

[skifishbum]

stopped by 2nd tracks today tons of stuff being sold for family props to ben and his crew for doing this
Dropped off a good pair of custom 192 bros w/ newfy stickers
and a pair of 191 lhasas that TIPPSTER compressed the shit out of an edge good rock skis cheap go get them and save your good skis

[icelanticskier]

U R A GOOD MAN, SFB.

rog

[sfotex]

Something else to thing about:
Avy gear didn't make a difference in this case, but how about medical training?
It probably wouldn't have made a difference in this case, but both this and the broken femur at Alta didn't require the use of a beacon, but illustrates the other side of the avy game that gets overlooked alot.

[Shorty_J]

I think those examples are pretty distinguishable. Soloists (and JP in his hucking days) take calculated risks; they know the risks and accept them. Clearly those risks are higher than most people are willing to accept, but for better or worse, the risk is a fairly known quantity, and the high risk is certainly part of the attraction. On the other hand, snow instability isn't a known quantity if you don't assess it. Failing to bring avy gear and/or assess the snow pack isn't an acceptance of a known risk, it's just willful ignorance. I highly doubt JP decided not to bring safety gear because it was more exciting, more challenging, or more of a rush.

If you're suggesting that a soloist takes risks that they are 100% aware of and can control and that JP was not capable of that, I have no idea how you can come to that conclusion.

It's good that we're talking about this and we're learning from it, but please, if you have not been in that situation yourself, reserve judgement and just comment politely. I can say from experience that the information you think you have about this incident is probably not 100% accurate, and when you compound that with the fact that JP clearly had a higher risk tolerance than most of us, I think it's disrespectful to judge him so harshly most of us would use examples of his accomplishments for stoke.

If you want to use his (hypothetical) situation as a justification to say how you would or wouldn't react in a situation, then great, but none of us were there and therefore have no business insulting the man. It's his life, and he lived it his way for his own reasons.

[beaterdit]

All he's saying is that JP and partner didn't assess stabiltily, or at least didn't assess it in anything more than the most cursory way. We know they didn't have the tools to dig a proper pit, maybe they did a hand pit, although I find even that doubtful. We can assume they probably discussed the avalanche activity they saw but that's about it. So the descision to drop in was woefully uninformed, seemingly in cantrast to his cliff jumping endeavors. That was toast's point, maybe stated in harsh terms but it seems valid to me.

[Shorty_J]

All he's saying is that JP and partner didn't assess stabiltily, or at least didn't assess it in anything more than the most cursory way.

And my point is that opinions formed on the sparse information we all posses is not valid. Discuss how you would have reacted all you want but nobody here knows what they did and didn't do (including why or why not), so judging them for it is the only thing we can actually be certain is woefully uninformed.

[paj]

judging them for it is the only thing we can actually be certain is woefully uninformed.

Judging someone isn't the same thing as analyzing the decisions they made and how those decisions affected the outcome of the day. I think this discussion is useful and focuses mostly on the latter.

[Shorty_J]

As I mentioned in my first post on the subject, talking about what each of us would have done in the situation IF things happened "x" way is great and I'm all for it, but there seems to be an inability to not include a judgement of the actual victim attached to that discussion, and it's based on conjecture.

[nateski]

can anyone speak to jp's snowboarding ability? just curious if it mightve been a situation where, were he on the more familiar skis instead, he mayve had a better chance of riding out of the slide

[Dumb Swede]

can anyone speak to jp's snowboarding ability? just curious if it mightve been a situation where, were he on the more familiar skis instead, he mayve had a better chance of riding out of the slide

The sport we all enjoy involves inherent risks. Those risks increase when we chose to ski outside of a controlled ski area. Ski/boarding ability is less important than luck and planning. We have seen the scenes where a pro skier/boarder has avoided a slide. This is a combination of knowing where to bail and pure luck. I was told once that I should make decisions in the back country as though I had no avi gear with me. Avoidance, IMO, is the key. Skiing/Boarding ability has no bearing on most outcomes. Decision making always does.

[skifishbum]

Knowin and being able to administer 1st aid and being a competant partner in that reguard has nothing to do with luck

[JoshP]

I swear I read somewhere recently that he was the only person so far to hit Chad's gap on both skis and a snowboard, so I am thinking he could rip on one plank too.

[Dumb Swede]

Knowin and being able to administer 1st aid and being a competant partner in that reguard has nothing to do with luck

Just to be clear, my was specifically in regards to being able to ride out a slide if caught. I agree whole heartedly with your statement.

[allTandA]

I swear I read somewhere recently that he was the only person so far to hit Chad's gap on both skis and a snowboard, so I am thinking he could rip on one plank too.

as I recall he hit it on alpine, tray, and pins too. BB would know that better than I can remember from 10/12 years ago. I do clearly remember homey's first few telemarking attempts....as I was free heel free the mind back then and he was all full of respect for hard charging freeheel hucking LCC crowd. shooting the duck he called it

He could straight rip on a board just like his big bro CP taught him

RIP brotherman

[misfit toy]

Wow! Ive been working way to much. Truly feeling shitty reading this! VIP & RIP...