MFD Alltime and Salomon 997's

[skimaxpower]

....I am not aware of any Salomon FLAT shims that are 1-2mm that are not what Jay already has under his 997 toe pictured above. I would love to see an image of one if you have it?

I knew I'd seen these around in the past! Dunno the dimensions on these shims, but they do exist, and Natedogg's selling them now.

[Teh Poacher]

I knew I'd seen these around in the past! Dunno the dimensions on these shims, but they do exist, and Natedogg's selling them now.

Yeah, those are the original (shape) ones that came out in the 977 era.

Basically the same as the ones I linked earlier in this thread, those appear to be the 10mm variety.

Interestingly enough, jgb@etree has what look like some black 'half-height' flat shims pictured in his thread. I had never seen those before. Those would certainly be the easiest solution, however planing a pair of 10mm's will work too.

[jfost]

...
Keep in mind, as the toe is deflected on that 997, the AFD continues to drop the further from center the toe moves. If the shim is not high enough, even though it clears the edge of the bootsole, as the release progresses the boot sole itself could hang up on that side rail. IE: a forward twisting fall that maintains AFD contact throughout the release....

IIRC, that 997 afd doesn't pivot like the spheric afd on all the (s) series bindings - like the 900S pictured. Shouldn't be any further "dropping" action of the boot, so if you can get it up above the rail you should be good to go.

[Teh Poacher]

IIRC, that 997 afd doesn't pivot like the spheric afd on all the (s) series bindings - like the 900S pictured. Shouldn't be any further "dropping" action of the boot, so if you can get it up above the rail you should be good to go.

The 977/997 AFD doesn't pivot, however it does drop as the toepiece is deflected from center. In addition to the white teflon AFD under the boot, there is another dead center in the toe cup. Directly below that, there is a connector to the boot-sole AFD that is behind the actual pivot for the entire assembly. If you remove the spring, you can easily move the toepiece through its full range of motion, you will see that the boot-sole AFD does depress during deflection. When the spring is replaced, it tensions the tab connected to the bootsole AFD, limiting this movement to a 'release-only' function.

[JayPowHound]

The 977/997 AFD doesn't pivot, however it does drop as the toepiece is deflected from center. In addition to the white teflon AFD under the boot, there is another dead center in the toe cup. Directly below that, there is a connector to the boot-sole AFD that is behind the actual pivot for the entire assembly. If you remove the spring, you can easily move the toepiece through its full range of motion, you will see that the boot-sole AFD does depress during deflection. When the spring is replaced, it tensions the tab connected to the bootsole AFD, limiting this movement to a 'release-only' function.

Decided to give this a try just for shits and giggles and unless I'm missing something I'm inclined to disagree with you.

I mounted a 997 toe to my workbench with a couple of small wood screws through the two rearward holes. I unscrewed the DIN spring until the toe moved freely and gave 'er a test. From all I can tell the AFD is solidly in place and not going anywhere... am I wrong? Thoughts?






Still not sure what I'm going to do with my MFDs, but if I go the manufactured 997 riser route I just want to make sure the afd's aren't dropping... did I miss something?

[Teh Poacher]

Still not sure what I'm going to do with my MFDs, but if I go the manufactured 997 riser route I just want to make sure the afd's aren't dropping... did I miss something?

You are missing pressure.

Use your thumb, with the toe-piece centered, press down on it. Looking at it from the side, maintain the pressure and move the toe in a 'release'. The further you move the toe, the lower the AFD plate will drop, to the point it will bottom out on the colored shim below it. It is very easy to see the tab that is connected to the AFD plate, its curved and designed to function as described.

Now, recenter the toe and press as hard as you can, viewed from the side the AFD will drop some, however if you re-tighten the DIN screw, you will find you are now unable to press the AFD down at all.

One cool thing about this design is: in cases where there is extreme downward force applied to the AFD, it will in fact, lower the required DIN force to facilitate a release. The advances in this area for all binding manufacturers came after Phil Mahre broke his ankle I think it was, due to his Markers locking-up in the exact way I just described when he center-punched a slalom gate with his ski tip.

Prior to this, the manufacturers were primarily concerned with a pure lateral release. IF I remember the timeline correctly, Salomon 727, 737 and 747 all had a toe piece that only moved on one plane. Starting with the 957, the 'Inclined Pivot' was introduced and that legendary design has carried us to the present day. Marker MRR toes used to have serrated toe wings to grip the boot sole to help with retention. Marker's answer back then was to add the little egg you see in the center of the toe cup, its purpose was to 'blow' the wings open in a high pressure, forward twisting fall.

This is why, in my original post, I mentioned specifically a forward twisting fall. This is the only condition that the clearance can change or be a factor in the overall safety with the MFD, for your sake my friend.

[JayPowHound]

I appreciate the help and advice, but tried again and can't seem to make the thing drop. I pressed down with my thumb as hard as I could while pivoting the toe side to side and couldn't reproduce ANY downward movement in the AFD... Further poking and prodding showed that it's pretty solidly in place, I can't do ANYTHING to get it to drop. Am I still missing something??

[JayPowHound]

OK, upon further tinkering I'm ready to admit that the 997 AFDs DO drop, but it seems like it's an upward motion that does it? Moving the toe up and down I can get the AFD plate to drop, but it happens when the toe goes up. I'm assuming that with a boot mounted the toe piece will be in the 'down' position and an upward twisting fall would cause the afd to move down?

I'll mount a heel to my table and get a boot in it in the next couple days to see what happens, just wanted to give an update.

To tell the truth I'm not really worried about any of this. I'll either end up finding a different binding for the MFDs or figure out a riser that's big enough to make the afd drop a non-factor. Add to that the fact that I don't have any skis for them yet and there's clearly no rush, so really I'm just pushing this project for fun / as research for the greater good of the community. Here goes...

[Teh Poacher]

I appreciate the help and advice, but tried again and can't seem to make the thing drop. I pressed down with my thumb as hard as I could while pivoting the toe side to side and couldn't reproduce ANY downward movement in the AFD... Further poking and prodding showed that it's pretty solidly in place, I can't do ANYTHING to get it to drop. Am I still missing something??

It appears the AFD is already in the down position in your first video. From the top view, the tab that is part of the AFD that goes up between the rear binding screws is not flush with the surrounding sides, it should be. This tab will drop as you relieve the pressure from the DIN screw, as the toe will tip forward on its pivot. In this position, the tab on the toe piece that touches the tab on the AFD has lost contact.

If you now tighten the DIN screw the toe piece will tip back into its normal position and that tab between the back screws will return to the 'flush' position. As you tighten this, pay attention to where that tab meets the toe piece, below the white AFD in the toe cup. The tab that is attached to the AFD plate is curved, it opens (drops) the AFD during any deflection of the toe in a release. Combined with the Inclined Pivot the toe is mounted to, which also moves upward as it moves to the side its like opening or closing a clam shell. It increases the distance between your AFD and the underside of the wings, allowing a boot to 'clear' the binding in a release more effectively, regardless if its forward or backward. When viewed from the side,it is possible to 'press' the bottom edge of the AFD and contact the molded edge of the shim, that gap can disappear completely with enough downward pressure.

I tried to upload some pictures, but I keep getting 'invalid file' errors..........

[jfost]

The 977/997 AFD doesn't pivot, however it does drop as the toepiece is deflected from center. In addition to the white teflon AFD under the boot, there is another dead center in the toe cup. Directly below that, there is a connector to the boot-sole AFD that is behind the actual pivot for the entire assembly. If you remove the spring, you can easily move the toepiece through its full range of motion, you will see that the boot-sole AFD does depress during deflection. When the spring is replaced, it tensions the tab connected to the bootsole AFD, limiting this movement to a 'release-only' function.

man thanks for the info - that's really good stuff! I'm a gonna go look at my sallys now with a closer eye...

[JayPowHound]

It appears the AFD is already in the down position in your first video. From the top view, the tab that is part of the AFD that goes up between the rear binding screws is not flush with the surrounding sides, it should be. This tab will drop as you relieve the pressure from the DIN screw, as the toe will tip forward on its pivot. In this position, the tab on the toe piece that touches the tab on the AFD has lost contact.

If you now tighten the DIN screw the toe piece will tip back into its normal position and that tab between the back screws will return to the 'flush' position. As you tighten this, pay attention to where that tab meets the toe piece, below the white AFD in the toe cup. The tab that is attached to the AFD plate is curved, it opens (drops) the AFD during any deflection of the toe in a release. Combined with the Inclined Pivot the toe is mounted to, which also moves upward as it moves to the side its like opening or closing a clam shell. It increases the distance between your AFD and the underside of the wings, allowing a boot to 'clear' the binding in a release more effectively, regardless if its forward or backward. When viewed from the side,it is possible to 'press' the bottom edge of the AFD and contact the molded edge of the shim, that gap can disappear completely with enough downward pressure.

I tried to upload some pictures, but I keep getting 'invalid file' errors..........

Seems about right, thanks for the continued explanations. I think my third video finally illustrates what you're talking about..