What do I want? Pivot Firebird vs. Knolly Chilcotin vs. Ibis Mojo vs. ???

[toast2266]

Yeah, I know this has been discussed, but 1) there hasn't been that much discussion of the Knolly, and 2) it's the shoulder season - time for re-re-hashing subjects.

I'm in the market for a ~6" travel frame. The criteria:
-Needs to be relatively light (i.e. can be built to 31-ish lbs without resorting to drilling speed holes).
-Needs to have a relatively slack head angle (I'm shooting for something around 66.5).
-Needs to have a relatively low BB (sub 14").
-Made out of metal is a bonus, but not a requirement.
-Needs to currently exist (I'm not waiting for the RFX).
-For the purposes of this discussion, I'm ignoring price.
-I have a downhill bike and I don't need another one; this bike will have air shocks, and should pedal pretty well. That said, I'll usually run platforms on it and I will jump off of stuff with it. I have a 170mm Lyrik that's going on the front.

The list as it currently exists, in order of preference:
Pivot Firebird
Mojo HD
Knolly Chilcotin
Special-ed Enduro
Banshee Rune
Giant Reign
Trek something or other (not sure what they're calling this model now)

I'll admit to tending towards the smaller brands because they're sexy and cool, even though I'm sure the enduros and reigns are entirely capable bikes that could potentially be had for less money. Also, a Canfield One isn't on there because it weighs 2-3 lbs more than most of the above options. Not interested in the Corsairs because they've had problems in the past, and I still maintain that idler pulleys are a bad idea. Edit: the SB-66 is also an option, but I'm sketched out by the fact that they spec it w/ 32 mm forks instead of a 36 or Lyrik. I also hate Yeti's crazy long top tubes (which is also a mark against the enduro). I didn't put the Nomad on there because I'm not a big fan of past santa cruzs that I've ridden (VPP pedalled nicely, but seemed kinda dead feeling elsewhere), although I haven't ridden a Nomad.

So, am I forgetting any frames that are worth looking at? How would the collective rank the above options? Should I jump on the Mojo bandwagon, or is the firebird a superior bike?

[knumbskull]

I love my Rune but I would wait until they come out with a bearing version.

[Dantheman]

Edit: the SB-66 is also an option, but I'm sketched out by the fact that they spec it w/ 32 mm forks instead of a 36 or Lyrik.

The Reign comes spec'd with a 32, FYI. Lots of people run those frames with 36mm forks. Since you have the Lyrik, I don't see that being an issue.

[JoshP]

ReignX. Light, metal, cheap, sub 14 inch BB, slack, currently exists (and is available again as a frame only) and I can say from firsthand experience works perfectly with a 170 Lyrik.

[toast2266]

The Reign comes spec'd with a 32, FYI. Lots of people run those frames with 36mm forks. Since you have the Lyrik, I don't see that being an issue.

I guess I should have specified that I'm looking at the Reign X/XO, which is spec'd with a 36. But yeah, you're probably right that my concerns on the Yeti's strength are unfounded. It still has a stupid long top tube though, and for some reason it still strikes me as slightly more XC-ish than some of the other options (those two issues may be related). Or maybe I just have some deep-down distrust of Yetis that I need to confront...

[Anospa]

I really love my Enduro. It might be a lil too slacked out with a 170mm fork, but I might try it out next summer. I feel like it goes through the travel a little too easily, but has never felt harsh and don't notice it bottoming out. I'm gonna do more tinkering with the shock, I'm sure someone more experienced could setup things great and never have an issue. I've got a 2010 comp, but have changed a few things and recently switched to 1x10 (no large hills) and I think I'm hovering just north of 31-32 pounds.

That said, I've got a handful of friends who have picked up mojos and are in love with them. The mechanic I go to most often built up a firebird over the summer and seems to be real happy with it, I think he was able to get it reasonably light too (within your ~31 pounds).

[panchosdad]

Titus is selling El Guapo frames for $999. Seems like a screaming deal to me.

[Lev]

Haha! These are my kind of threads. Been on the hunt for a looooooong ass time.

Here's how I made my decision. I test rode my buddies' bikes. In my group there is a Nomad, Remedy, Reign X, and Enduro that I got to try. In that order, the Nomad probably was the plushest. That's because my buddy had a vanilla front and rear and the thing felt like a DH sled. The Remedy was the opposite. Very stiff and my hands hurt by the time I was done riding it. What's the point of having 6" of travel if you're not going to use it? Tuning it better would've helped. The Reign X was my favorite. It climbed great and was almost as plush as the Nomad, but with air suspension. And yes, the Enduro was a tad too long for me in the top tube. I didn't enjoy it as much. My buddy who rides it though was an XC racer and he is wicked fast on that thing. Way faster than me.

With Maestro on my mind, I started comparing it to DW linkages. I know Giant would say their design is different, but I think there are some major similarities. Dave Weagel IMO has created a perfect blend of riding platform and plush riding characteristics. From what I've read, the VPP has weaknesses in climbing ledgy terrain or steps. My local rides have quite a few of those, so that turned me off a bit. I wanted a somewhat active suspension when climbing, and the VPP tends to lack in that. In fact, I could feel the "feedback" or link engagement when climbing, and it was a turnoff to me. Some people like it, but not me.

Now for the Knolly comparison. I love Knolly. I love Noel Buckley. I've talked to him on the phone, and he's the real deal. The guy was an aerospace engineer or some shit, and he dropped it all to live out his dream. He had a DH background, and it shows in his bikes. I rode an Endorphin for 3 years and it was the best bike I'd ever ridden... until I rode my Mojo HD

My biggest complaint about the Endorphin was the slack seat tube angle. It just never worked out for me that well when climbing. Steep, techy climbs were a challenge for me. Hopping on my friends' Nomad and Reign X made me realize what I was missing. Some of my 50/50 tech climbs went to 80/20 in terms of success. The new Chilcotins are 2 degrees steeper, which makes me think Knolly realized they had gone a bit too slack. With that said, I'd probably like the Chili a lot better. The biggest issue now with the Chili is availability. There are none. Completely sold out. Next run is Jan., and I believe that's sold out too. You'll be waiting for a while.

So... if you want a bike now... my vote is for the Reign X or Mojo HD.

[Lev]

Oh...

And one more important thing to add to that: Scot Nichols is the man. He is the owner of Ibis, and he rocks. He was very helpful with my build and when I emailed Ibis, he responded in less than a day. That to me is awesome. Not sure you'll find that with too many other companies. Turner and Knolly are the only two I can think of, but I'm sure the likes of Canfield and Transition would offer similar customer service.

In the bike industry, customer service is where companies can really make or break the experience. Shit goes wrong some times. It's nice to know you got good people and a good company to back you up.

[Dside11-11]

I'm selling a 2010 medium Nomad frame for $1000

[toast2266]

Good info there Lev - that's why I love this place. Good to know the Chilcotins are potentially unobtanium. It sounds like it may realistically fail my "needs to currently exist" criteria.

[grinch]

i'm really liking the norco range and rocky slayer. their numbers hit your marks. tried my buddies slayer a bit. fun on the down. i'd like to pedal it some more. i bet it goes. i'm looking at a intense tracer for a lil more standover with this http://www.workscomponents.co.uk/10-...adset-30-p.aspto bring it down to a 66 ht. all my parts from my rune will swap onto the tracer as well(xc and dh 135 wheels and an iscg 05). really like the rune and am considering going to a med for a longer tt. no probs yet w bushings in the rune but i've heard the stories

[LeeLau]

I've ridden or reviewed these bikes so have some direct personal experience. But am a light guy who rides mostly in BC. So keep these impressions in mind.

I'm in the market for a ~6" travel frame. The criteria:
-Needs to be relatively light (i.e. can be built to 31-ish lbs without resorting to drilling speed holes).
-Needs to have a relatively slack head angle (I'm shooting for something around 66.5).
-Needs to have a relatively low BB (sub 14").
-Made out of metal is a bonus, but not a requirement.
-Needs to currently exist (I'm not waiting for the RFX).
-For the purposes of this discussion, I'm ignoring price.
-I have a downhill bike and I don't need another one; this bike will have air shocks, and should pedal pretty well. That said, I'll usually run platforms on it and I will jump off of stuff with it. I have a 170mm Lyrik that's going on the front.

The list as it currently exists, in order of preference:

That's a good list. Nothing remarkable stands out to add to it.

Pivot Firebird [Lee - justified as #1 contender IMO. Can easily be built to sub 31. Wife rides one with Lyrik 170 but I like it so much I poach the bike constantly. Best pedalling bike I've tried in this category of bike by far)

Mojo HD [Lee - superior ascender bike but I disliked lack of standover. Felt wooden on the descent so I'd put it into average category descending. Hard to describe why but I'm sure if I need to could expand on it.)

Knolly Chilcotin [Lee - no comment as haven't tried it and like others have said - good luck getting one]

Special-ed Enduro [Lee - average climber. Astoundingly good descender. Felt flexier than the Firebird though)

Banshee Rune [Lee - mediocre climber. Remarkable pedal feedback on small ring. Superior descender. You already probably know the frames have wear issues]

Giant Reign [ Lee - only tried coil version Reign X1 - poor climber but i've had others disagree with me on that. Above average descender]

Trek something or other (not sure what they're calling this model now) [Lee - no experience with either Slash or Remedy]

[milkman]

I'm on a Rocky Slayer and it's amazing. Feels like a mini DH bike on the down and pedals like a champ. I'd add it to the list.

[Anospa]

Grinch had a good point with the norco range, I totally forgot about that bike. I borrowed a demo for a week while the shop had my enduro in for some issues and I loved that bike. I'm 6' with shorter legs, so I'm usually skirting the line between medium and large. My enduro is a medium, and this range was a medium, but felt a tad smaller over all.

It was a really great bike once I got the rebound dialed. Didn't notice any bobbing on climbs and plenty plush. I showed up on a group ride about a month later and the guy leading had bought that bike. If I didn't already have my Enduro, I would've been pissed because it was such a fun bike.

[iscariot]

I think this thread belongs in first world problems. Nice problem to have.

[SB]

Something to point out the Mojo HD will fit 650b wheels if your into that kind of thing. Not sure about the Firebird but my buddys bike looks like it would fit.

[joetron]

If you decide on a Chilcotin soon, I should be able to get you one in in the February batch.

[phatfreeheeler]

Something to point out the Mojo HD will fit 650b wheels if your into that kind of thing. Not sure about the Firebird but my buddys bike looks like it would fit.

Where is this extra space people speak of? Are you running road tires or something cause mine just fits true 2.4 tires with no extra room and that's on a 26" rim. My 2.35 Kenda BBG's buzz the FD cable at times.

BTW - My vote is Reign X, Mojo HD, Firebird, or Nomad-c. From what I can tell from my time on them is that they all can be setup to run very competitively, so it should come down to fit and personal preference.

[powking12]

Can't say I've ridden any of these but I can comment on the CS end. My friend was sold (scammed) a Mojo SL. Ibis totally hooked him up and have made another Ibis For Life customer. And they had no reason or obligation to do it other than being awesome.

[toast2266]

Lots of good info coming in here.

Lee - thanks for chiming in. I think I'm roughly your size, and I've read most of your reviews (which are the primary reason the firebird is sitting at the top). Good to see a quick and dirty comparison though. Where do you rank the firebird in terms of descending?

That Norco range looks interesting, and I definitely haven't come across those previously. I'll have to see if a local shop has one (unlikely).

Flowtron's Ghost - That's awesome, thanks. I'll let you know if I decide to go with one of those.

Not really into the whole 650b thing, but I'm surprised they fit in a Mojo. My friend's Mojo HD has the tire buzzing issues that phatfreeheeler mentioned - any hard landing makes a 2.4 maxxis hit the seat tube.

Realistically, this may just come down to what I can get a good deal on. For the sake of discussion, I'm ignoring price. While the reality of my bank account says that's irresponsible, fretting about price doesn't make for a fun discussion, so fuck it.

[LeeLau]

Would have to put the Firebird and Rune in a tie as far as descending. Haven't ridden the Range for more than one ride. Ditto Slayer. Ditto Nomad. I woudn't have been one bit surprised if all those bikes were as good descending as the Firebird but that's speculation.

Put it this way. Before I rode the Firebird I was pretty happy with my Endorphin and thought all 6" travel bikes (well the Endorphins really 5.5) were destined to suck uphill. The Firebird makes the Endorphin feel dated. Basically I agree with Lev about why he's no longer too hot on his Endo

[Swine]

Now for the Knolly comparison. I love Knolly. I love Noel Buckley. I've talked to him on the phone, and he's the real deal. The guy was an aerospace engineer or some shit, and he dropped it all to live out his dream. He had a DH background, and it shows in his bikes. I rode an Endorphin for 3 years and it was the best bike I'd ever ridden... until I rode my Mojo HD

Can't agree more, but I'm a total Knomer so take it for what it's worth. I rode the Chilcotin at Interbike last year, back to back with the then new carbon Nomad. In short, the Chilcotin blew the Nomad away in every category for me. I couldn't get enough of it. The Nomad, for whatever reason, felt like a tin can bouncing around on the down, and didn't hook up as well when climbing. Super twitchy and not fun at all. And, the Knolly pedaled better, did the down better, and was just amazing in every way. But again, what do I know, I ride a V-tach on everything because I can't afford two bikes Also, setup at a demo like that is pretty hit or miss. Still... have you seen how sexy that 4x4 linkage is?

I met Noel as well, and hung out the next day at the indoor with the Knolly crew. Awesome guys, awesome bikes, I seriously have an unhealthy crush on that company.

I must say though, as far as customer service you can't go wrong with Canfield either. I've gotten the bros. via email and they were super helpful (and hooked me up with some pedals) so no complaints here. I love small companies, and I sacrifice a lot to support my recreating habits so I like to give it to them. But hey, the girlfriend loves her Reign and I think it's a sweet bike for the price and what it offers.

Now I just have to save my freaking pennies so I can get Lev's Endorphin.

[BigKuba]

Size might not be right (I'm 5'11" and ride a medium, although I have short t-rex arms), but there are two large Firebirds available from the Pivot demo sale for $3200-3300. Full warranty etc etc.
http://pivotcycles.com/demosale

That's how I got mine and I love it. Can't offer other constructive advice beyond what's already been said.

[SB]

Where is this extra space people speak of? Are you running road tires or something cause mine just fits true 2.4 tires with no extra room and that's on a 26" rim. My 2.35 Kenda BBG's buzz the FD cable at times.

It is known that the Mojo HD in the 140 config fits 650b x 2.35 tires. In 160 there is slight seat tube rub, and the need for a shock shim. There are several threads over at mtbr on the subject. I personally run a 2010 Stumpy M5 frame with 650b wheels and tires with only minor clearance issues at the seat stay. I just do not run it in heavy mud, got a fat bike for that.