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  1. #1
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    Prerelease comparison between G3 Onyx and Dynafit Radical FT

    I own the previous Dynafit FT12 model and had some issues with toe prerelease when my skis start to chatter on hardpack groomers. (yeah, I know groomers suck, but over here in Europe we don't have powder upon demand and sometimes you have to ski groomers to find pow)
    Anybody out there who can give an educated guess which toe binding is less apt to prerelease, the new Dynafit Radical FT or the G3 Onyx ?
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  2. #2
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    I'm guessing the guys who had access to the Radical FT last year are smart enough to leave the chattery groomer testing to guys like you . . .

  3. #3
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    Some other dumbfuck can do this test for this jackass. I specifically do NOT volunteer

  4. #4
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    Can't compare to the radical, but the ST is blatantly loosing this game to the Onyx. I can ski the Onyx normal and didn't have toe release issues, while I permanently have to lock the STs. I assume, the radical isn't much different in that respect, as not much was changed on the pin arm design.

    However, chatter on hardpack leads normally to vertical heel releases for me, where I fell, the binders are comparable. Sidewards knocking on iced tracks etc again are better digested by the onyx with more elastic travel.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregL View Post
    I'm guessing the guys who had access to the Radical FT last year are smart enough to leave the chattery groomer testing to guys like you . . .
    Last year ? Guys with tech bindings start skiing before the season opens.....
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  6. #6
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    Knut, I thought the Radical pin arm design was a major change over the Vertical FT and ST. If the Radical toe binding does solve the prerelease problem, I can try to buy only the toe bindings and save some money because I never had prereleases with the heel FT's. Too bad Dynafit isn't offering a free upgrade for a flawed product :-(
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeeLau View Post
    Some other dumbfuck can do this test for this jackass. I specifically do NOT volunteer
    6565 posts ? Wow ! Question: are all your posts without content ?
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  8. #8
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackass View Post
    6565 posts ? Wow ! Question: are all your posts without content ?


    Serious? Why don't you take a look at some of his posts before asking such a stupid question.

    Lee is pretty much the god of dynafits. His insight has helped many people (myself included).

    Show some respect. :-)

  10. #10
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    anyone have anyother comparisons between G3 and dynafit?

    seems like G3 is a bit more convenient to get in/out of ski/walk mode, but a bit more weight to drag around?


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by mntlion View Post
    anyone have anyother comparisons between G3 and dynafit?

    seems like G3 is a bit more convenient to get in/out of ski/walk mode, but a bit more weight to drag around?
    Easier to switch modes but harder to get into. And they're comparatively fragile.

    To Jackass: there are people, big and small, who have had trouble with prerelease at the toes with Dynafits. There are far more who've had no problem. Far, far, far more. I believe this difference is due in part to skiing style, in part to boots with damaged inserts, and perhaps also to a run of FT12's with toes that didn't come out right. This resulted in a very minor redesign (stiffer toe spring? I don't quote recall). There seems to also have been issues with FT12 toes breaking because of their smaller than ST/Comfort plastic base plates that don't support the toe wings as well. Presumably as a solution to this, Dynafit released the Power Plate which provides extra support for the toe wings.

    I'm not sure it's been established whether the redesigned Radical toe is only meant to address the lack of toe wing support provided by the FT baseplate (which it most certainly does) or if they also are also more resistant to opening, a la the Onyx or Plum Guides. Perhaps someone might answer this question with a simple unscientific test. Perhaps it has already been answered. You could ask Frederico, a board member who works for Dynafit. But testing whether or not they prerelease less would probably require one of the early testers (such as Lee, I would guess) who skis more smoothly than you to intentionally coarsen their technique in order to eventually, unexpectedly, cause a ski to go flying off in a manner likely to cause injury. They would have to do this with both FT's, Onyx and Radicals and compare results (and severity of injuries?). And this would be, to borrow from Lee Lau and your handle, a job for a jackass. Dig?

  12. #12
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    The product has not been tested yet except by dynafit boosters so we will all have to wait. Lou Dawson says he can still get the prerelease in bench testing but it is a little harder than before. A commentor on his blog also mentioned being able to still duplicate the toe prerelease on the new bindings during a carpet test. Edit: The alloy pillars known as "power towers" don't contact most boot toes and may still allow enough movement to open the toe wings.

    I for one am gambling that the problem is somewhat mitigated, being that I bought a pair of Radical FT's.
    I won't be skiing icy groomers with them, but I have witnessed with my own eyes (almost saw someone die) and heard more than my fair share of anecdotal stories about people skiing right out of the toe on chalky steep terrain. I will lock them during that type of skiing but have heard of people coming out of them locked anyways so whatever.

    I know it's nice to be a 140 pound mountain elf and talk all day long about how perfect dynafits are, but from my research and experience, it's more than 1% of users that are reasonably sketched out about this issue. Just watch the link of Lou Dawson duplicating the failure on his blog. It doesn't take much force to get this to happen.

    http://www.wildsnow.com/3976/dynafit...incer-springs/

    I talked to a local shop guy that mounts dynafits all day long for years that said the din on the toe spring is equal to a 6. He skis with them locked in deep pow and of course slide for life terrain. You can't be a taller, heavier skier and trust a din of 6 unless you ski like a fairy all the time, or ski with the toe locked all the time and risk a serious knee or leg injury in the backcountry which has the potential to be life threatening. Never gonna happen to you? Well good for you and good luck, not an experience I wish to have, not once.

    In my opinion this is a design flaw and I hope Dynafit has addressed this issue. They get a damn good price for coming out with basically the same product every year so I hope this years is money well spent on an actual functional improvement to an obvious safety problem many of us bigger, taller skiers have waited years for.
    "The skis just popped me up out of the snow and I went screaming down the hill on a high better than any heroin junkie." She Ra

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knut View Post
    I assume, the radical isn't much different in that respect, as not much was changed on the pin arm design.
    A lot was changed in the pin arm design for the Radical series - there is a solid pillar of alloy that doesn't move laterally to either side of the boot toe. Depending on the boot, it can't move or can't move far enough to begin opening the toe arms (in theory). Whether it works well enought to keep jackass or Knut in on chattery, icy snow is the unknown.

    The last time I tried "testing" something like this, it was Silvretta Easy-Go 555's (some years ago), the result was 2 cracked ribs.

  14. #14
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    Icy groomers are one thing, but who hasn't hit a chalky or chattery spot in a steep line while skiing in less than ideal conditions? This is where I want to be able to trust my equipment with my life. It's a legitimate issue to many or else dynafit wouldn't have tried to mitigate the problem. Overall I'm expecting the Radicals to be an improvement in this department though, can't wait to go skiing.
    "The skis just popped me up out of the snow and I went screaming down the hill on a high better than any heroin junkie." She Ra

  15. #15
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    I thought these "pillars" were mainly meant to help in the step-in process? Can't see how they should do a great job in preventing pre-releases (especially if it depends on the boot). Besides the angles/pivot points of the pin arms seem comparable between TLT and Radical. While in the Plums there's some difference and the Onyx uses a completely different approach with their arms being closed by default.

    That's the thoughts my judgement on the Radicals was based on.

  16. #16
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    Lou Dawson probably has as much contact with Dynafit product design people as anyone in the US. His take:

    "Secondly, the Towers are intended to keep your boot toe from moving to the side during unusual impact or stress, and thus opening the binding wings and causing inadvertent boot release."

    He seems to think the towers help prevent lateral movement, especially when the gap between boot toe and towers is eliminated by adding tape . . .

    http://www.wildsnow.com/4828/dynafit...ountry-skiing/

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeroforhire View Post
    Serious? Why don't you take a look at some of his posts before asking such a stupid question.

    Lee is pretty much the god of dynafits. His insight has helped many people (myself included).

    Show some respect. :-)
    Not serious ! But I don't like gods and lawyers for that matter. Anyway, Lee can take it. I hope.
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  18. #18
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    uhhhhhhhhhhhh...............what about the Plumes?
    No longer stuck.

    Quote Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn View Post
    Just an uneducated guess.

  19. #19
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    My season starts December 10th. The guy/guide I'm going skiing with, doesn't want to see me on Vertical FT12's. Too much hassle last two seasons with prereleases. When I show up with Radicals I have to be about 100% sure they will not prerelease. Same goes for Onyx. And I don't like Diamirs, Dukes and Naxos for different reasons. I use Dynafits Zzeus, so the tower power pillars will probably decrease the prerelease risk, but how much ? I read the wildsnow blogs on this subject, but I cannot fathom the 'prerelease' difference between the Radicals and the Onyx. BTW, tnx for the input sofar !
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  20. #20
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    @ Tone Capone: you wrote "In my opinion this is a design flaw and I hope Dynafit has addressed this issue. They get a damn good price for coming out with basically the same product every year so I hope this years is money well spent on an actual functional improvement to an obvious safety problem many of us bigger, taller skiers have waited years for."

    I totally agree. Dynafit sold the Vertical FT 12 as a DIN12. Not single warning for heavy or tall skiers that don't ski like elfs. Or a warning for chatter or icy snow. So the product was flawed. I emailed Dynafit (Salewa) and asked for a (paid or free) upgrade of my 'flawed' toe bindings that won't even reach DIN6 under certain conditions. But they didn't even bother to answer. Imagine a car manufacturer selling a car that does 150 mph, but the wheels come off at 60mph when you hit a bump, I'd spell that R E C A L L. But for bindings, Dynafit assumes (right or wrong ?) it is my responsibility to brake my neck using their DIN6 toe binding. Ofcourse I can lock the toe to avoid breaking my neck, instead breaking my knee.
    Don't get me wrong, I love Dynafit, but I paid topdollar for a flawed toe binding and I honestly think they should compensate the Vertical buyers with some sort of upgrade policy.
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by I've seen black diamonds! View Post
    You could ask Frederico, a board member who works for Dynafit. But testing whether or not they prerelease less would probably require one of the early testers (such as Lee, I would guess) who skis more smoothly than you to intentionally coarsen their technique in order to eventually, unexpectedly, cause a ski to go flying off in a manner likely to cause injury. They would have to do this with both FT's, Onyx and Radicals and compare results (and severity of injuries?). And this would be, to borrow from Lee Lau and your handle, a job for a jackass. Dig?
    I will ask Frederico. Maybe he is following this thread. I'm not sure if Lee is skiing a lot smoother than me, but I know his weight and length are a lot less than mine (190 cm/90 kgs). And about the testing, I don't recommend anybody to test prereleases, whether they are called jackass or not ;-). But it sure would be nice if some of the enlightened folks out there, who have access to Radicals and Onyxes, would do a prerelease bench test between the Radicals and the Onyx. I asked the G3 people if they can show some light on the subject, let's hope they are eager to prove the Onyx is less prone to prerelease, but if the Radical performs better, I probably won't get an answer.....
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  22. #22
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    I honestly think they should compensate the Vertical buyers with some sort of upgrade policy.
    Well, good luck with that. I'm sure as hell glad I didn't spend top dollar on them until now. I'll ski with them locked on steep firm terrain with exposure, but if I start coming out of them unlocked in pow, check gear swap. If I lose one of these things in the pow due to some bullshit prerelease, well, I'll carry a cianide pill for that occasion.

    I hope they are legit though, they certainly feel solid being clicked in on the carpet. They seem like they definetly have less twisting flex than when I stepped into verticals a few years ago. Sure you might say you don't notice it skiing, but does the skinny mounting pattern on wide skis contribute to the issue? Wish they would have made a pair with the mounting holes spread out more, but at least the support plate is wider. Maybe this will help lessen the torque on the toe wings with wider skis. This is the main reason I have avoided them until now. These things were invented for skis with less than 80 millimeter waists and haven't adapted to ever increasing ski widths till now.

    I bet most of the issues are from people trying to mount these things on 110+ waist skis. Asking for trouble in my opinion.
    "The skis just popped me up out of the snow and I went screaming down the hill on a high better than any heroin junkie." She Ra

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackass View Post
    MWhen I show up with Radicals I have to be about 100% sure they will not prerelease.
    This is an unrealistic expectation for any binding, much less a tech binding.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by skimaxpower View Post
    This is an unrealistic expectation for any binding, much less a tech binding.
    Wiith the word 'about' I indicated less (or more) than 100 %. I guess my FT12's are prone to prerelease (with prerelease I mean they were expected NOT to open) 2 out of 10 times when my skis chatter on hardpacked or icy snow. I expect the Radicals to open 2 out of 100 under the same conditions. Is that unrealistic ?
    Equus africanus asinus is a hardworking animal. Respect !

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackass View Post
    I don't like gods and lawyers for that matter.
    Sounds like Lee is two for two.

    Seriously, this is a new product, it will be a season or so before enough people have enough mileage on the Radicals to make much of a judgement. The people with time on them are probably <70kg Austrian dudes who ski like elves, so their experience may not apply to you. I would say show up on December 10 with your FT toes locked and wait for more data.

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